Eru Ilúvatar Puns

Something I find interesting is that while Eru is more or less the same as the Christian God, he seems a lot more distant to the world. Christians believe God is always interacting with the world, while Eru seems to leave more of the work to the Valar. And Christians consider worshipping God to be important while from my memory people are rarely shown even speaking of Eru. It certainly doesn't seem like he expected prayer or churches.

So how many people in Middle Earth knew anything about Eru? Did the Men of Gondor and Rohan ever worship him, or would they have been confused if you even mentioned the name? I'm guessing the elves all knew but I don't know if they ever prayed to him.

Being the Creator of all things, does he expect praise from his creations? Would he be upset if an elf or man (or ent or orc, for that matter) cursed his name?

Elves came first and are physically superior but are bound to the world while Men have the Gift of Men and more freedom of their destiny.

Title says all. I know it can't be that he fears Sauron, cause he's so much more powerful than the dark lord, so what could it be?

Is there a reason behind this? Maybe praising Eru could be a bulwark against Melkor? Do we know why he choose to be more hidden?

I think that Eru Ilúvatar might have a "weakness" that is exposed by his reluctance to directly intervene in Arda. He is so vast and powerful that he can't make subtle actions of creation or decruction. He can't raise a lonely mountain, he raises a mountain range when he tries. He can't crush a city, he sinks the entire island when he tries. That explains his reliance upon the Valar and Maiar to get things done. It's not that he doesn't want to interfere... it's that he can't interfere without creating incalculable collateral damage in the process.

What do you guys think.

So how does it actually happen, for instance Elros chose mortality and elrond chose immortality. Does Eru intervene when they are ready to choose and if so do they actually talk to him or does he just know when they are ready amd what they have chosen, is there a time limit to their choice for when they have to choose a side and if so what is the limit, is it when they come of age, is it when they reach a certain age etc. Is there any information on this.

I'll preface this post by stating that I'm not religious, and I know Tolkien was very Christian, and in Tolkien's mind Eru is the ultimate benevolent God. I just don't see it. I want to like Eru, but his actions time and time again make me question his entire character.

Firstly, he doesn't intervene when Morgoth is destroying his world, causing massive havoc. This is understandable to me because he wants his creations to have free will, so of course he won't just snap them out of existence. Because of this, Morgoth is allowed to wage this massive war that causes immense pain, grief, and terror throughout world. Thousands of elves, men, and other creatures suffer at the hands of the Dark Lord, but this is acceptable because Eru is allowing his creations to act out as they will.

However, all that changes the second he decides to intervene. He decides to kill everyone on Numenor because they decide to sail on Valinor, instantly taking away all their free will and agency. Also he just decides to kill everyone on the island, all the children, women, men, plenty of them probably not fallen to darkness yet. At least I don't see how a kid or a baby could be irredeemably evil. And to make matters worse, it isn't like all these Men were suddenly just evil. They had been manipulated by Sauron, one of the greatest of his Maia.

So basically Eru is okay with Sauron having the free will to corrupt thousands of men, but not okay with those same people acting on their own free?

And then after taking away the free will of some of the people in Middle-Earth, it makes all his previous inaction seem straight up evil. Basically, he only acts when he wants to, an doesn't give a fuck about the suffering that literally every race experienced during the 1st age. I mean he allows the torture and corruption of men so badly that they become the race of Orcs, a race that has almost no free will because they've been completely bent to Morgoth's will (if it wasn't men, it was elves, I know Tolkien never really decided on the origin of the Orcs but I've read he was favoring Men near the end of his life).

To me, that makes the whole story start to collapse in on itself. It makes me doubt entirely that Eru is benevolent. He's omnipotent, all knowing, so he knew that the Numenoreans would eventually act this way, which means he knew he would take away their free will at some point, so why did he allow any of it to happen?

Is there anyone out there that can give me some insight here?

This battle will be taking place in our universe. And this battle will go in accordance of Option 5 of this Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/3yxfka/meta_omnipotence_on_whowouldwin/ This thread was made by u/Etrae and u/Roflmoo, please read it before commenting on this thread. Also I didn't include any Suggsverse characters because they don't actually make any sense.

this is going to be philosophical kind of post.

If Eru ilúvatar was based of the Christian God then would it not be easier and even better to call said God Eru ilúvatar, doing so makes God feel more like a father, more relatable and understandable(at least in my opinion). I used to believe that if God was real then its disgusting sitting on its throne within the silver city, watching as we mortal men suffer and stride to prolong the inevitable path of death, watching as kids starve, kids getting bombed by missile strikes and even devoured by predators, yes there is good in the world but not enough of it to out shine the darkness and malice of morgoth and his hordes.

But after reading half of the silmarillion and having a better understanding of Eru ilúvatar and thus the Christian God through the eyes of Tolkien I have since changed my mind of God if one exists that is. God gives his children the gift of freedom and choices to do great things, said great things may be good or may be bad but regardless great things man can do and achieve through the gift of free will. God could stop the suffering, the pain, the darkness of morgoth and his hordes upon our earth but it is because of the gift God gave that makes it our problem to deal with and banish the darkness and keep it at bay, for there are no elves to fight the darkness nor offer their insight or wisdom on such matters, long have the elves departed the land of our Arda.

After reading some of the silmarillion the prospect of God is more likeable then dislikeable. The gift of death is by far my most loved gift in the world for we too like the mortal man in Tolkiens works may depart the earth and have no more suffering.

My logic and scientific belief tells me there is no God for there is no evidence to suggest such a being exists but after reading the silmarillion there is this feeling in my body that tells me Eru the one does exist; but should I believe in Eru ilúvatar then everything i know and have believed is for nothing.

What do you guys think.

Is Eru Ilúvatar omniscient? For example - Saruman came as one of the Istari to aid in the fight against Sauron, but he had secret intentions, which is why he wasn't allowed back to Valinor when he died. But lets say that Saruman died before his "true agenda" came to light - would Eru already know his intentions and hinder him from coming back to Valinor?

So Eru Ilúvatar only intervened a few times in Lord of the rings in order to help against Sauron. I am aware of three instances:

Bilbo finding the ring in the first instance.

Reviving and empowering Gandalf after the Balrog fight.

Making Gollum trip and fall into mount Doom along with the ring.

While two of these hardly counts as leveraging unseemly amount of power against Sauron, Eru Ilúvatar is omniscient it can be assumed that he was quite aware that he butterfly effected engineered Sauron's loss.

And of course reviving and empowering Sauron's, at the time probably most powerful foe, is a powerful act of divine intervention which could make one wonder if Eru Ilúvatar would just continue to revive and empower Gandalf until Sauron is defeated.

So with these factors in mind, did Sauron ever really stand a chance or was Sauron just hopelessly and inevitably outmatched from the start?

I believe that man was intended to be closest to eru ilúvatar when it comes to will and their souls. Eru made their wills and souls unbreakable so no matter what they could not be dominated in spirit as long as they stayed true to eru ilúvatar and they chose to refuse morgoth and his rulership. Here is why:

"To Men Morgoth feigned pity, if any would hearken to his messages, saying that their woes came only of their servitude to the rebel Noldor, but at the hands of the rightful Lord of Middle-Earth they would get honour and a just reward of valour, if they would leave the rebellion. But few men of the three houses of the Edain would give ear to him, not even were they brought to the torment of Angband."

Where as the Elves there wills and souls while pure and beautiful are like all soft and kind things vulnerable to corruption and malice.

"Many of the Noldor and Sindar they took captive and led to Angband, and made them thralls, forcing them to use their skills and their knowledge in the service of Morgoth."

There is only one elf that comes to mind that had the unbreakable soul and will of man and that is Feanor for he was the mightiest of all Elven kind both in body and in spirit while still retaining the Elven beauty, purity and kindness of the Elven soul and spirit.

What do you guys think.

Why doesn't Eru ilúvatar enter Ea and thus Middle-Earth.

If he did how would this affect things, what form would he take, would he too be bound to Arda until the destruction and recreation of it, would there even be a destruction and recreation of Arda, would there be a second music.

How would the Children of Ilúvatar react to Eru ilúvatar and his presence on Arda, would they fear him or would they love him, would they have much to ask or would they ask nothing, how would the Ainur react, how would they deal with it, how would Morgoth deal with it, and what would Sauron think, would he shit himself. How would Eru ilúvatar affect men, would men even be able to Gaze upon him, how would this affect numenor, if Eru ilúvatar was on Arda or entered into Arda just as the numenoreans were at the shores of Valinor and he was to appear before Ar-Pharazon, how would it unfold. Would he go blind for he was corrupted and did much evil, would his presence purify wherever he walked, would It completely clean the corruption of melkor from Arda. What do you guys think.

Since they’re just extensions of his universe is there any chance of him having any kind of pity for them?

Asking for a friend. She has just started reading the Silmarillion and she's been taking notes. She was wondering if she can use Children of Eru as a synonym for Children of Ilúvatar because it's shorter. Can they be used in the same context? (She is not at all fluent in Quenya, Sindarin, or any other Middle-Earthen tongue so an answer in English would be greatly appreciated.)

So some Maiar may have revealed a little to much about the truth of the universe at some point, because I have in my hands as complete a set knowledge regarding Eru Ilúvatar as anyone is ever likely to get, using this knowledge I have started a religion, with myself as the prophet, this religion has taken off beyond my wildest expectations, and I am using the power it gives me to satisfy my pettiest and most twisted desires, as well as reworking society to my satisfaction, all in the name of Eru Ilúvatar, and while I twist his words and actions to suit my agenda, I make sure that it is indeed him that people worship, because I have learned it is the spark of realism that really gets people going, there is no doubt that all the horrible things I make people do, they do in the sincere belief that it pleases the one and actual Eru Ilúvatar, likewise I am pretty sure that it runs contrary to the harmony of Eru Ilúvatars music, but hey I am an asshole like that.

Now however I am getting worried, it seems that my twisted religion will long outlive me and plague the world for millennia to come, and while I don't really care about all the people that are likely to get hurt over the this, I am worried about my own skin, sure if I was just preaching to some Shepherds in a nowhere meadow, the powers that be might not care, but this is getting really big, so should I worry?

I really like being a selfish prick and would hate to mend my ways just to make the world a better and more harmonious place.

If Eru ilúvatar and the Ainur were real how would you all feel about it. What I mean if suddenly they came into existence and the undying lands appeared on the earth.

How would you feel, how do you think the world would react.

How would religious people react, how would nations and governments deal and react to such a thing.

We know man shall leave the circles of the world where he shall dwell with Eru ilúvatar the one himself but once they are with him do they still have free will, do they willingly stay with him or do they have a choice to leave his side and re-enter Ea against his wishes, would Eru ilúvatar actively prevent them from going against his will or does he still wish them to ultimately still have free will.

Let's say they dont have the freedom of choice once they die and leave Ea wouldn't that Make Eru ilúvatars gift of freedom to his children all for nothing.

If he does still allow them freedom of choice and one does decide to enter Ea what do you guys think would happen, how would that former Mortal soul be changed, how would Eru ilúvatars valar react to this im very sure they notice the soul or spirit of a man who had dwelled with Eru ilúvatar re-entering Ea. How would this man be different, would he be able to take physical form, would he share the same knowledge and wisdom as Eru ilúvatar himself since he has been side by side with Eru ilúvatar. If someone like let's say Boromir decided to Enter Ea what do you think would happen, would he have powers above Valar, or knowledge superior to them, or would he just be a spirit with no substance. Im really curious to know.

As the title states, what is the relation between the character Tom Bombadil and Eru Ilúvatar? I got thinking of this whilst reading lore and only seing mentions of Toms great abilities and limitation of his own "power". Tho I got thinking that this wouldn't just appear but have a bigger background. I've read through this(https://imgur.com/gallery/v9lDgAw) in hope of finding a answer, but all I get out of it is that he is his own Master and is not bound to anothers power.

I've aso seen speculations that Tom Bombadil IS Eru Ilúvatar, this has been proven to be false since Tolkien also mentions there is no embodiment of Eru Ilúvatar during any of his stories, letters or novels.

So I'm here for a desperate answer for my question, I've gotten plenty of good information before and hoping for more, happy even if all answers are speculations.

Only shorter, and wider. And infinitely more British!

How do we factor this? We need a deep dive into Hobbit emergence!

P.S. Eru's ace up the sleeve AKA a hidden hole in the ground...

Warning: a lot of text to follow

TLDR; Knowing that no one could consciously destroy the Ring, Eru Ilúvatar was directly intervening all along with the specific intention of bringing Gollum to Mount Doom to fall into the Cracks. Everything from at least his release from Barad-dur to his final fall was directly (but subtly) orchestrated by Ilúvatar directly. Making him responsible for Gollum's release from Barad-dur, escape from Mirkwood, convenient location in Moria, mysterious ability to cross the destroyed Bridge of Khazad-dum, going undetected in Lothlórien, his following of the Fellowship down the Anduin and finally his fall into the Cracks of Doom.

So I'm going through a reread of The Lord of the Rings and something popped into my mind yesterday regarding Eru Ilúvatar and him intervening in the War of the Ring. I was asked on another subreddit if I thought he intervened on more occasions than just sending back Gandalf and causing Gollum to fall. It got me thinking about it and I'm starting to believe that Ilúvatar was intervening on Gollum's behalf at least as far back as his release from Barad-dur.

Now it should be stated before I get into my theory, when I make statements along the lines of "with the help of Ilúvatar" or "guided by Ilúvatar" I mean these to be taken as happening subtly. Ilúvatar's interventions can vary widely in how apparent they are. He can intervene subtly like when he trips Gollum. He can intervene directly, but not spectacularly like when he sends Gandalf back to Middle Earth. Or he can intervene dramatically like when he destroyed an entire army, their island kingdom and changed the shape of the fucking planet. So unless otherwise stated I will be referring to the first (and possibly second) variety of intervention.

So, Tolkien stated in one of his letters that the task given to Frodo was an impossible one and that no one could destroy the Ring. Something known to Ilúvatar. It is for that reason that I think he was planning to have the Ring destroyed via Gollum falling in the Cracks since the beginning. Something I think is alluded to by Gandalf in one of the most famous conversations regarding Gollum:

>Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'

>Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends

>“And thou Melkor shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it’s uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite for he that attempteth shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful which he himself hath not imagined”

This passage is from the Silmarillion and it didn’t make much sense to me until I read CT’s commentary in Lost Tales. When he speaks about how Melko and Ungoliant’s destruction of the two trees (an evil act) resulted in the sun and moon (something more wonderful than Melko (or any Ainu) had imagined.

I’d like to try to open up a discussion of events in Tolkien’s legendarium of when unfounded goodness prevails as a result of the actions of evil. I have a few here

Sauron’s corruption of Numenor resulted in making the world round, and a separation of Aman from the mortal lands. Which basically gave Men (and elves for a time) a world of their own.

The theft of the silmarils and the exile of the Noldor resulted in the ensuing war against Melkor in Beleriand and the war of wrath, and the imprisonment of Melkor.

I know these are weak but can anyone think of any other examples that might be stronger than mine?

I know that to some extent this question is a flat out no from just the text, so I guess it’s a question more for those who read the Simarillion and the Unfinished Tales.

When he saw Frodo succumb to the One-Ring in Mount Doom. Of course, it was all according to his design. But, I wonder if, after the moment when Frodo claimed the ring for his own and before Gollum attacked him, he grew pained and said, "Thou has done more than ye could. Now, be blameless."

What do you think was going thorough Ilúvatar's head or even the Valars?

I have a hard time understanding this. From what I can gather death is a gift because it allows Men not to be bound by the music and gives them the ability to choose their own fate. Elves and Valar may envy this fate. Okay but why do Eru then give men longer lives to them as a sort of gift? Isn't that counter-productive? Or am I just overthinking this

Elves came first and are physically superior but are bound to the world while Men have the Gift of Men and more freedom of their destiny.