If so, go read Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. I just finished reading it today and I learned SO MUCH, and it has like ten pages of bibliography in the back.
It's particularly about the history of Mormon fundamentalism as it led up to a double murder committed by a fundamentalist in the 80s, but it covers the origins of Mormonism and how the Mormons were chased to Utah and events like the Mountain Meadows Massacre (that shit's fucked up).
Krakauer writes from a basically neutral perspective in terms of pro/anti Mormon-ness, and as I said everything is super thoroughly sourced, so I think it's a plausible option for introducing a Mormon family member or friend to the unpleasant aspects of Mormon history. And Krakauer, as he always is, is really really good at putting a bunch of historical records and documents and interviews together into a cohesive, interesting narrative - everything in the book is factual or very limited, evidence-based conjecture, but it reads like a novel.
12/10 do recommend.
Doing some reading for a paper I'm working on and come across this gem.
Many of you will be disturbed by it's crystal clear description of Mormonism...albeit without even mentioning the word.
Enjoy.
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/news/2011/08/02/identity-foreclosure-and-adventist-education
(Hat tip to Sam Harris)
As I once said to my TBM wife, "Mormonism is ugly in a way that few things are. It's diminished the quality of my life for my whole life. I didn't leave the Church because it's not true. I left because it's not good and it's only saving grace is that the mainstream Church doesn't presently believe and practice their doctrine to the full extent of its ugliness."
My objections to Mormonism have always been on moral grounds and I thank the FSM that it's so transparently a fraud.
I read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" and found fascinating. For some reason the whole Mormon Fundamentalist movement is really interesting to me.
It seems that they're very concentrated in certain areas. I can't say I've ever met someone who has been a part of Mormon Fundamentalism. I was wondering if anyone had experience with it? It'd be interesting to see firsthand the Arizona Strip. Anyone been to Colorado City?
Besides the Krakauer book what are some other good resources to look at?
I'm curious as to what books exist out there on Mormon fundamentalism. I'm also especially interested in anything published by the FLDS, Centennial Park and other groups. Any suggestions?
Flavor of religion is not much different from other products...to each her/his own. Especially when the consumer has neither Full Disclosure or Informed Consent.
To me a fundamental problem of Mormonism is that it gives some people power over other people. It creates a power dynamic which has no checks and balances and no legitimate eligibility requirements for power (nepotism anyone?).
This even though Mormons supposedly accept that "God is no respecter of persons" and that in the Book of Mormon and the Bible monarchy is eschewed for a counsel of (qualified!!) judges because of the difficulty in finding a just and equitable line of royalty.
To me this is a major issue with the fundamental doctrine of Mormonism, why would I give someone else power over me and my family? Even if only 5%, 10% are bad leaders, why would I lend such absolute power to anyone? Just my two cents.
I feel like I'm losing my mind. As a lifelong member, I have long been aware of mormons either being unaware of, or finding ways to justify past doctrines, policies, and cultural practices of the church that are no longer practiced for whatever reason.
What I'm seeing at a shockingly increasing rate that I just don't fucking understand is mormons straight-up lying about well-known, current practices and teachings of the church. (I will be replacing the longform name of the church in these quotes because praise satan that's why.
"Mormons don't have to pay tithing to go to the temple."
"Mormons can drink coffee"
"You can be gay and be mormon."
"Mormons can wear whatever they want."
"Mormons can date whenever/whomever they want"
"Children aren't ever made to be alone with church leaders"
"There are no sexual questions in bishops interviews with children"
"Mormons don't believe the bible/bom are literal."
Also rebranding "Prophet" to "Global Faith Leader" and cutting "of latterday saints" from the name and pretending like it's not a way to go mainstream Christianity.
I get that I've been absent for half a decade but what the fuck.
By the way, if you want to see some prime examples, check out some exmormon videos on tiktok.
*renounces
Disclaimer: not trying to throw shade at LDS people. You're some of the nicest, caring, most altruistic people I've ever met. I am writing this assuming that the Book of Mormon was not divinely inspired, so read on at your own risk.
This is a bit of a work in progress, but after reading 1 and most of 2 Nephi in the Book of Mormon, I've started to see some poignant similarities to Ready Player One, and because I'm really interested in religion as culture and cognitive science of religion, that should be significant!
Ready Player One, by Ernest Cline, is the story of Wade Watts, 80's culture expert who becomes a VR king and saves the [virtual] world.
1 and 2 Nephi, by Joseph Smith, is the story of Nephi, a Jew in 600 BCE who receives secret instruction from God to travel to the New World to escape the destruction of Jerusalem and carry the true revelation.
I keep spotting similarities:
Culture Fandom: Ernest Cline is a huge fan of 80's culture: able to name any character, show, episode, trinket, trope, and videogame. Joseph Smith would have been a huge fan of Christian culture, likewise able to recite scripture, make theological analyses, and name any biblical character, story, location, and trinket.
The fandom for both Cline and Smith builds into fan-fiction through the respective authors' creativity: Cline imagines a VR world of 80's culture, where the myriad 80's facts in his head become building blocks in his VR world; Smith imagines a new testament, where the biblical tropes -- theologies, story arcs, common conflicts, and even writing styles -- in his head become building blocks.
Vicarious Lead Characters: Cline creates Wade Watts, a low-status kid who possesses incredible 80's knowledge that he uses to defeat his enemies. Smith creates Nephi, a 600 BCE Jew who is granted incredible knowledge of God's plan for the future: the destruction of Jerusalem, the arrival and crucifixion of Christ, and the New Covenant, and because he is chosen by God to possess this knowledge, he likewise is empowered to defeat his enemies. Cline and Smith both create various scenarios where their vicarious leads are in one way or another besieged by enemies, only to defeat them using their special attributes -- attributes which their respective authors also possess.
Feats of Esoterica: Both Cline and Smith relish in their mastery of esoterica. For Cline, there are lists upon lists of 80's nostalgia: rare toys, specific lines from specific m
... keep reading on reddit ➡
I have been seeing a lot of posts about people trying to unsuccessfully convince TBMs about the errors of the Church. This is made difficult if not impossible because members of the Church are narcissistically conditioned to conceive of truth as internal to themselves based upon feelings, not external based upon demonstrable facts or logic. This problem bleeds into other facets of their lives, making it difficult for them to accept counsel or scientific findings that do not harmonize with their internal voices. Of course, they do not see this as a problem. I have even tried reasoning with faithful close family members that even in Mormon theology God has two counselors, the Prophet has two counselors, a bishop has two counselors, etc. as an example that we should be willing to accept counsel, but they insist that their particular self-inspired version of reality is the authentic one.
I was hoping to get an answer as I’m not Mormon and never have been, but I was watching Sister Wives (lol) and one of the adult daughters was being interviewed about how she wished to be baptized in an LDS temple, but was denied even though she personally renounces polygamy because her parents are known polygamists.
This made me wonder—do fundamentalist Mormons try to make use of LDS temples regularly? Or is it case by case? I know Colorado City has its own temple, but wasn’t sure how this usually works.
[The following points are largely adapted from John Hamer’s observations and lectures, including Mormon Stories episodes 1063-1065]
People often read the Book of Mormon and, following Moroni’s promise, determine that it is “true,” by which they mean a literal and factual record, authored by ancient people, physically inscribed on metal, and accurately conveyed to the modern day through Joseph Smith.
If read as an isolated text, with reference to no outside works and no pre-existing knowledge on the part of the reader, it might reasonably be understood to be internally consistent--to feel true and real. However, this is a low bar. Any book should be internally consistent because it is self-referential--characters, times, and places should fit together, otherwise the reader will be confused and frustrated. The challenge is, is the book externally consistent? Does it, as a book that purports to convey authentic facts, align with known facts outside of the narrative?
Language:
Idiosyncrasies of language show that the language used throughout the of Book of Mormon, including Bible quotes, is based on a version of the King James Bible printed after the 17th century.
Historical connections:
Though the Book of Mormon uses names, places, and ideas that are referred to in the KJV, and widely known by Christians of all sects, the application of these things is superficial, lacking backstory, historical context, or historically appropriate worldview. Often, even 19th century historical biblical literacy is lacking. Sometimes, the chronology is misaligned leaving BoM figures to cite biblical events or records before those writings were made. (Analogous example: A movie script that features Star Wars’ Greedo as a lead character in command of Indiana Jones set during the Korean War with plot points that focus on LGBT+ affirmation. Such a movie could be written and understood by today’s people, but any person who knew anything about these character’s or theme’s precedent history would understand the all of the elements to be out of existing time and place; the movie would be a parody or fan fic with no basis in real-world or movie-world reality.)
The inclusion of anachronisms and lack of synchronism:
The Book of Mormon does not include, address, or infer address plausible ideas, concerns, or daily life of the time of purported authorship. However it does address the questions and worldview of nineteenth-century people. Similarly, the
... keep reading on reddit ➡It’s super cringe-worthy to me now. It took many decades to reprogram this type of thinking. The reality, actually, is that while the USA has been economically successful and our form of democracy has been an above-average form of government, this has all come at the cost of horrific wars and horrific acts at home and across the world, suppression of the economic growth of other nations, and a debt load unsurpassed by the rest of the world combined in all of history. It’s hardly a golden tale of success and providence in god’s promised land. Mormons can tell themselves whatever they want without actually understanding the far from divine road that created today’s USA. And, this is far from a resource rich nation compared to so many others. It’s hardly a chosen land of abundance.
Also, despite how mormons believe this is somehow a righteous nation and those heathen nations just need American help, the other strongly religious nations of the world actually see the USA as the cesspool of debauchery that has corrupted the whole world continually for generations, which is probably true.
