Urim And Thummim Puns

When I first read the D&C from cover to cover, I was about 8 years old. I thought it was kind of fascinating that several of the sections near the beginning were received through the Urim and Thummim. I thought this must be important, so I underlined it. I had been through Sunday school and I assumed that this was the special glasses that Joseph had dug up with the plates.

Recently I have been looking into this in greater detail. Here's what I've learned:

1. There was no mention of these revelations coming through the Urim and Thummim until the 1921 version of D&C. This was a major revision and removed the Lectures on Faith which had been in the cannon for almost 100 years (1835-1921).
2. The revelations which are listed as being received through the Urim and Thummim are sections 3, 6, 7, 11, 14, and 17. All of these are received prior to June 1829.
3. In the current D&C compilation, sections 1-19 are all received prior to fall of 1829. According to David Whitmer, all of the revelations in this time period were received through the brown seer stone by placing it in a hat. Whitmer has a strong opinion about all of the changes which were made to the revelations between the 1833 and 1835 printings. He did not approve of the many changes which Joseph and others did to update the revelations for the 2nd printing.

It seems likely that the decision to include the bit about the Urim and Thummim was a reaction to Whitmer's publication - an address to all believers in Christ. But some questions remain:

1. Why did the church include this comment in 6 section headings and leave it out in 13 other section headings which were also received through the seer stone? Will the church update this in future printings of D&C?
2. Will the church update the D&C to note that it wasn't the Urim and Thummim, but rather the brown seer stone that was the source of the revelation?
3. The headings sometimes indicate that Joseph inquired of the lord and received the following revelation through the Urim and Thummim. However, some of the historical accounts seem to indicate that he looked at the stone with the intent to translate and instead received a revelation. Which is correct?

Joseph stopped using the seer stone for revelation between about July 1829 and Jan 1830 according to Whitmer, and was not using it when he received the revelation at the founding of the church in April 1830 (section 20). After that, Whitmer says that Joseph w

And god is no respecter of persons, Yea right!!

We just published chapter five of our Saints review/fact-check at www.ldsdiscussions.com/saints -- today's chapter focuses on Joseph beginning the translation, so we touch on what the Urim and Thummim are in Mormon terms, what Saints doesn't tell you about the Charles Anthon visit, why Joseph likely didn't grow pale when he saw Jerusalem had a wall, and about Martin Harris losing the first 116 pages.

This chapter is interesting because they continue to pretend that the seer stone and Urim and Thummim are interchangeable yet sacred, they ignore Anthon's accounts of his visit with Martin Harris, they ignore that Joseph's 'reformed Egyptian' characters are nonsensical, and they use Lucy Mack Smith constantly again to paint a perfect narrative of Joseph while turning Lucy Harris into the villain. I really think this is our best one yet in tackling historical issues, which shows just how much Saints purposefully leaves out.

Please check it out and if you like it, please come back daily as we will add a chapter each day. Also, if you have any sourced objections to the truth claims in Saints, please let us know so we can add as much helpful information as possible.

We don't want this to be super long so that those with questions will stick around and read it, but we also want to be thorough to really hit on each point where they are deflecting/hiding the truth. Any crowdsourced help is always appreciated! :)

Happy Saturday, everyone!

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell, the first time anyone ever mentioned the Urim and Thummim in connection with the translation of the Book of Mormon was in 1833 when W.W. Phelps wrote, in The Evening and Morning Star (see page 116, top of right column):

> It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of Interpreters, or spectacles—(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim or Urim and Thummim)

As far as I can tell, no one, prior to this time, had ever heard it suggested that the Urim and Thummim was used for the translation of the Book of Mormon. Prior to this, the story was always the seer stone.

The first time Joseph Smith supposedly would have seen the Urim and Thummim in the ground with the plates was in 1823, a decade earlier. He would have seen them annually on his visits with Moroni. He would have taken them with the plates in 1827. He would have had them in his possession until Moroni took them back in summer 1828 after the 116 pages were lost.

And despite all this time with the Urim and Thummim, it was never mentioned until W.W. Phelps said "perhaps" the interpreters were the Urim and Thummim? Does this make any sense? It makes none to me.

But wait, /u/TheWayoftheFuture, the Urim and Thummim is clearly mentioned in D&C 10:1 which is a revelation dating to 1828 or 1829 per the section heading. This makes your 1833 date wrong because the Urim and Thummim was clearly mentioned in 1828 or 1829 in D&C 10.

Not so fast! The original D&C 10 was published in the 1833 Book of Commandments and this revelation began this way:

> NOW, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them, and you also lost your gift at the same time, nevertheless it has been restored unto you again: therefore, see that you are faithful and go on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work as you have begun.

Notice anything missing? This revelation was republished in the 1835 D&C and [the text was changed to this](http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835#!/paperSummary/doctrine-and-

Every time I tell a Mormon about the rock in hat trick Joe used, they say "oh, you mean the urim and thummim" like they know what I'm talking about.

Also, where did the term urim and thummim come from? What is the urim and what is the thummim? I chuckle every time Mormons say these words, they sound so silly.

I believe everything in scripture is interconnected to other scripture. I’ve been studying the urim and thummim and looking for a connection within them to the New Testament.

Thoughts?

I just started reading ZEALOT by Reza Aslan and was surprised to learn that the Jewish High Priest wore a holy breatplate to designate his office and carried a pouch containing a Urim and Thummim. A Urim and Thummim were a set of small objects, probably made from wood or stone, that were used in divination. Scholars assert that Urim means "guilty" and that Thummim means "innocent" and that the High Priest would use the sacred objects as a way to receive communication from God. Wikipedia article. It looks like standard reappropriation from Joseph.

TL;DR: The Urim and Thummim of the Bible was a set of divination objects designed to give a yes/no answer--not a set of holy spectacles.

https://www.lds-general-conference.org/

JSP - "In th[e] course of the work of translation, we ascertained that three special witnesses were to be provided by the Lord, to whom he would grant, that they should see the plates from which this work (the Book of Mormon) should be translated, and that these witnesses should bear record of the same; as will be found, recorded, Book of Mormon First edition...Almost immediately after we had made this discovery, [HC 1:52] it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and the aforementioned Martin Harris (who had came to enquire after our progress in the work) that they would have me enquire of the Lord, to know if they might not obtain of him to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so very solicitous, and teazed me so much, that at length <​I​> complied, and through the Urim and Thummin, I obtained of the Lord for them the folowing Revelation." (see D&C 17)

Joseph Smith choosing the Martin, Oliver, and David as the 3 witnesses stems from them teasing and harassing Joseph til he gave in. Sounds just like how you would expect the heavens to operate! I don't remember seeing that part in the church manuals.

...to JS's translation of the BOM? Seeing as TSCC doesn't like to show pictures or references of how JS really translated the BOM, I'm not surprised he is saying JS did it mainly through listening to the Spirit but still, to me it sounds like he is trying to cover it up.

I created this presentation to respond to claims made by David (Saints Unscripted) who postulated that church leaders have never tried to intentionally deceive members with respect to the seer stone. About 3025 examples are given, along with the following summary:

1. Throughout its history, the church has modified quotes to make them more consistent with whatever narrative they are trying promote.
2. The church seems particularly hesitant to talk about or show pictures of the hat Joseph used.
3. The church continues to portray the hat (as used in translation) incorrectly
4. Starting in 2013, the church has provided a more accurate version of how the seer stone was used.
5. The church continues to imply and express dual-methods for translation of the Book of Mormon (Urim and Thummim or the brown seer stone) which is inaccurate.

I welcome feedback if you come across any errors or important omissions.

Edit: 2020.04.12 - based on the feedback, I have gone back through the presentation. I tried to fix a number of typos and soften parts where my case wasn't good and eliminate poor or duplicate examples. I also added additional context regarding why I thought Maxwell was deceptive. Please continue to provide feedback and I will continue to update/improve this as much as I can.

I also came across this post where David addresses my criticism directly. He seems to be responding to my earlier youtube comments when he says:

>Not long ago a man reached out to me having felt deceived by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...

He responds by saying in part:

>The Church has published more about Joseph seer stone than critics may have you believe, but they still haven’t published a whole lot. The question we’re confronted with is, why? Some people have come to the conclusion that the Church has something to hide. My conclusion is that, as previously stated, information about the stone as a translation tool has been scant and suspect for a long time. To assume that we’ve always known about and had access to the historic sources that we currently have would be a mistake.

Just to be clear:

1. My view is that he has missed about 2/3 of the sources published by various church presses. I am still working on compiling them, but will publish all of this. Seer stones are addressed about 15 times in church magazines between 1882 and

So Moses and Jesus weren't mature enough spiritually to drop the use of "everyday" objects to do God's work, but Joseph Smith was? The church is really trying to retain those with weak minds. The new video is gibberish and baby talk. Keep it up Mormon Church---your base is showing.

It is easy for me to find fault with high-profile members. People like Packer, Brigham Young, George Q. Cannon, and Oaks make is too easy sometimes. Don't even get me started on Nibley or some of the other apologists. But there also some high-profile members that I (a son of perdition) think are genuinely awesome. Here is my short list:

1. Marlin Jensen: Former church historian. He tried really hard and was basically honest during the Swedish Rescue fireside. He knows the history and was pretty open about it. He was instrumental in starting the Gospel Topics essays, JS papers project, etc (along with Turley). From what I can tell, he is a genuine, caring individual.
2. Jana Reiss: Sociologist. She studies the real issues facing the movement and reports them honestly.
3. Melissa Inouye: Seems genuinely caring and willing to explore and understand the difficult issues surrounding faith and is non-judgmental towards those who leave. Currently she is facing a serious battle with cancer. I really wish the best for her and her family.
4. Thomas Wayment: Faithful scholar who actually is willing to embrace the real history surrounding the Bible, the JST, etc. He does good scholarship and has made this available to the LDS audience for the first time since... ever?
5. Greg Prince: Knows the messiness of the history and chooses to stay and help his tribe. Understands that change comes from within and managed to (probably) drive the change on the Nov. policy through his book Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences.
6. Eugene E. Campbell (deceased): Simply a great historian. His Establishing Zion was supposed to have been part of the 15/16 volume 3rd official history of the church (and would have been had it not been for some overly zealous apostles).
7. Thomas Alexander: Another great historian. Mormonism in Transition should be required reading. This was also part of the 3rd official history project.
8. Hugh B. Brown: He knew that blacks should have the priesthood and almost made it happen a decade before Kimball. Punished for his actions, he is an unsung hero of mormonism.
9. D. Michael Quinn: He considers himself a member, so why shouldn't I? He's not perfect as a historian, but he's better than most and brings up lots of interesting topics to further explore.
10. Lavina Fielding Anderson: Technically not a member, but the most faithful excommunicated member the world has ever

Festa e Buzmit, ose Buzmi bujar, është festa pagane e ringjalljes së hyjit Diell, festë që përkon me solsticin dimëror ose mesin e dimrit më 21 dhjetor. Pas datës 22, ku është dhe piku i natës, dita fillon e zgjatet, dhe Dielli "ringjallet" për popujt e veriut, pasi del përsëri në horizont.

Në trojet shqiptare njihet si Buzmi bujar dhe rituali është mbajtur gjallë edhe në ditët e sotme.

Njihet dhe me emrat "festa e mesit të dimrit" ose "nata e buzmit", "Kshnellat" , "Kërshëndellat", ditëknellja (Mirditë), mjedisi i dimrit (Lumë), që bëhet në 24 dhjetor, kur fillon zgjatja e ditës, «kthimi i diellit prej verës».

Karakteristikë e kësaj feste është «buzmi bujar», një trung i madh që vihet në vatër dhe ndizet në këtë natë.

Buzmi me zjarrin, ngrohtësinë dhe ditën e tij shëmbëllen diellin, prandaj e përgëzojnë dhe e gostisin si të ishte njeri që po u sjell verën.

Kisha u mundua që ta shkatërronte këtë ritual, duke e zëvendësuar me lindjen e Krishtit dhe duke mbajtur ca nga ritet pagane, por besimi i lashtë ilir ende jeton në trojet shqiptare me një numër shqiptarësh që e festojnë atë sipas ritit të lashtë ilire.

Ndezja e Buzmit në natën e krishtlindjes në Kojë të Malësisë së Madhe.
https://youtu.be/71BgVNIx0JI

Dokumentation:
https://youtu.be/AmAnPNSL1IA

TL;DR I related some of my TSCC dealbreakers with my bishop and his shelf seems to be cracking before my very eyes.

Hey, folks. Just joined this community today. Looking to assuage this crazy loneliness I'm feeling by connecting with others who have been where I am. Sorry if this runs a little long, but it's my first time posting anything and I've had a lot on my mind.

I've been mentally and emotionally checked out of TSCC for years, but just recently came to my senses about the false narrative that the "restored gospel" is based on. My wife and I are active in our ward, I am currently the Sunday School President.

I dropped the news of my disillusionment on my TBM spouse a few weeks ago, after having her promise to keep it to herself until I knew how I wanted to proceed. She responded with fear, anger, grief, and accompanying verbal abuse. Sadly, I expected this, as well as her first suggestion. Time to confess my "shortcomings" to the bishop. I want to show my wife that I respect her, so I agreed to meet with him. He's always been really kind and honest in my dealings with him, and I've nary heard a negative thing spoken about him in all my time in this ward. Well-liked, salt-of-the-earth type of dude.

I have never felt the need to schedule an appointment with my bishop for anything other than recommend interviews and tithing settlement. But there I sat in his office, with him staring at me expectantly, no idea what I was about to say. I decided to be blunt with him. I told him that I no longer believed the LDS church was true. He asked why. I said that the history of the church has a too many faith-crushing skeletons in its closet. Then he asked for some examples.

I proceeded to list of a dozen or so of my biggest historical hangups, and as my list grew, so did his expression of confusion. He told me he had never heard about any of this before. My eyes widened in disbelief. Surely the long-time bishop of a large ward would have had this same conversation with some other struggling soul by now? Was I really the first? I decided right then to try and plant a seed. I started going into detail about the Kinderhook plates, JS's insane Nauvoo polygamy escapades, and the myriad problems with Book of Mormon historicity, and he mostly just listened. He asked typical apologetic questions a few times but the expression in his eyes became more disturbed with each new bomb. By the end of our exchange, he looked like a fresh murder witness.

Was reading this on churchofjesuschrist.org: Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/a-new-prophet-and-a-new-scripture-the-coming-forth-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

Jospeh's seer stone that the church recently published a picture of has to be special and different if another stone wouldn't work the same way. What are your thoughts on how it is different? How is this stone a conduit to revelation while the other one wasn't?

Six weeks before Roberts ’ death in 1933, he was interviewed by Wesley P. Lloyd, one of his missionaries who later became dean of the graduate school at BYU. In this interview Roberts told Lloyd “that the plates were not objective [ did not actually exist] but subjective [the plates were emotional and imaginary] with Joseph Smith, that his exceptional imagination qualified him psychologically for the experience which he had in presenting to the world the Book of Mormon, and that the plates with the Urim and Thummim were not objective.” ( Dialogue , Vol 26, Nbr 3, Fall 1993, p 86) . Brigham Madsen then said: “ In other words, and in the plain kind of language that Roberts liked to employ, there were no gold plates, there was only Joseph Smith drawing upon his creative imagination to formulate and write a work of fiction called the Book of Mormon . This preeminent Mormon intellectual and church authority was a conscientious scholar who was willing to follow wherever the evidence led him.” ( Dialogue , Vol 26, Nbr 3, Fall 1993, p 86, italics added; for more information regarding Roberts research and writings, see Link: Human Origins of the BofM). Included a mong Roberts’ studies was the problem of the Book of Mormon saying horses existed in America during the Book of Mormon time period. From archaeological and historical evidence it has been known for at least a century that no horses existed in the Americas during the time frame of the Book of Mormon. Due to either climate change or some kind of pandemic, all horses became extinct from both North and South America at the end of the Pleistocene era, about 11,000 years ago. The horse did not return to the Americas until the 15 th century when the Spanish began importing Iberian horses into Cuba, Haiti, and other large islands offshore the Americas, which began in 1493 as a part the second voyage of Christopher Columbus. LDS apologists suggest that Smith meant something else rather than horse, but there is no question he knew what a horse was, since horses were the main mode of transportation in his day that everyone used, and that he rode a favorite one in the Nauvoo Legion. If we begin second guessing what he wrote in the Book of Mormon, that horses are actually something else, and that all problems can be changed to something acceptable, then it opens the door to questioning everything that was written in it. Upon his death in 1933, all of Roberts materials were confiscated and not found again until th

The church's approach to history

If the Church has possessed the seer stone used to translate the Book of Mormon since the death of Joseph Smith, but has kept it hidden, rather than displayed someplace such as the LDS history Museum with other well displayed pieces of history, then they desire to minimize or even hide its role in church history. How familiar with the words Urim and Thummim are you? How familiar with divining rods and seer stones are you? If you don’t believe in them now, then why do you suppose God stopped using them? Did he ever use them?

I can go into any class from primary to gospel doctrine and describe or show an artistic version of the urim and thummim, and have the class immediately recognize it. I could bring the actual seer stone and not have a single person have any idea what it is. If I showed a picture of Joseph Smith reading gold plates, on the table in front of him, every member would recognize it. If I showed Joseph with his face in a hat, not one child (and few adults) would have any idea what was being depicted. Whys is this? Is it accidental or deliberate?

I love the movie the Naked Gun. In one scene, a fireworks factory catches fire and fireworks began to shoot off in all directions. Lieutenant Frank Drummond stands in front of the building with fireworks going all directions shouting, “move along, nothing to see here”. This is the approach to the seer stone, and much of church history. The Urim and Thummim are talked about regularly in church, the seer stones, the gift of the divining rod, and treasure hunting are rarely mentioned. “Move along, nothing to see here”.

Is manipulating information a method of manipulating people? Honest people deal in facts, some of which they may find unhelpful to their goals. I don’t always like the facts, but I always prefer them to deception.

Not talking about the role of the seer stone is at minimum a sin of omission, and more likely an attempt to mislead people about the churches origins. If the church has minimized and suppressed the role of the seer stone, what other magical or occult devices or events are they minimizing or suppressing? Is the LDS church candid and honest about its history and origins? Now that the internet is making historical information available to people at home, the church is beginning to release information it has h

1. By the early 1800's the USA had failed and needed to be saved.

In the late 1700's early 1800's the colonial USA was facing unconscionable challenges. 15 states were formed between 1786 and 1791. 10 states would be formed during the next 20 years. After Missouri in 1821, only 1 state would be formed during the next 24 years. Although there were many different political parties and patriotic groups, challenges like counterfeit money, slavery, alcoholism and warring Indian tribes had some groups believing the easterly landlocked Nation had failed and would be taken over by Great Britain or one of the several countries that already claimed the western lands of the continent. One patriotic party known as the Freemasonry Brotherhood is credited with many attempts at saving the nation during these several colonial decades. Across many regions of the time, the Freemasonry Brotherhood was comprised of many chapters and factions. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Paul Revere and others were well known affiliates of the greater Freemasonry Brotherhood and all were very active in their local chapters and factions. The Nation however would continue to divide with the Civil War on it's doorstep. As a reminder of how primitive living was back then remember that although electric motors were invented in the 1830's the commercial lightbulb wouldn't be put into use for 60 years. Joseph Smith never saw a lightbulb.

2. Spiritual "new names" are not unique. They follow a monthly "name" schedule.

Mormonism has chapels and temples. Chapels are typically open to the public for Sunday services and are also where other weekly gatherings are held. Temples are for private ceremonies where victims of Mormonism are invited to make additional promises to Mormonism. These promises may eventually include marriage as well as a commitment to spiritual polygamy. During these ceremonies, a person is given a spiritual "name". This is referred to as their "new name". While it is customary for wives to tell their husbands their "new name", males are admonished to keep their own new name a secret. Although many people may attend any of several ceremonies a day, it is taught that that new names are unique for each person. In reality the "new names" follow a predetermined sc

I always wondered if I'd live to see the 116 pages and what they could possibly hold. Now I cannot wait to see what kind of crazy bullshit and lies they will produce. I wonder if it will be the same stuff written back then or if it will be something written by modern day "prophets" to try to further subserviate members or try to "correct" problems with the church. Who's to say, but it will be very interesting to witness if it ever does happen.

A little thought on the BOM. God sends Nephi back to Jerusalem to get the brass plates because they are so important. He allows Nephi to kill Laban (the most grievous of sins) to obtain the plates because “It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.” So, they got precious plates that they needed to prevent a nation from perishing and in the process committed murder. Each of the Book of Mormon prophets kept written records (no easy task when you have to write them on metal plates), Mormon abridged them onto the golden plates. Moroni sealed them up with the sword of Laban and the Urim and Thummim that God had prepared so that the plates could be translated. Joseph receives instruction from Moroni over the course of four years. He finally gets the plates and Urim and Thummim and begins to translate.

Only his translation is done with a rock (seer stone) that he found while digging a well and it belonged to someone else. And it had been used to con people out of money while he was using it as a peep stone to find nonexistent treasure. So, WTH:

Why did they have to kill Laban? Why not just stick a rock in a hat and tell everyone what was on the brass plates?

Why did each of the BOM prophets have to write the history, Mormon consolidate it and Moroni bury it all up with the other items if Smith would just use the stone anyway?

What is the point of God preparing the Urim and Thummim if it was not needed?

There are so many holes in the story it’s impossible for me to understand how anyone in their right mind could believe it.

Date 1853 (1853)
Title Union of the Saints -- Authority of the Priesthood -- Power of God -- Obedience -- The Urim and Thummim, Etc
Author Heber C. Kimball

Expanded context:

...for a people to exist that withdraw from this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it is for a limb of a tree to live when it is severed from the body of the tree. Of this I am positive, because I know it. So I will say concerning the world and all the sects and denominations and kingdoms of the world, that oppose this work and people of God, they will wither in due time likewise, and they can not help themselves. When brother Joseph Smith lived, he was our Prophet, our Seer, and Revelator; he was our dictator in the things of God, and it was for us to listen to him, and do just as he told us. Now that appears very absurd in the eyes of the world; but they all say, if they had lived in the days of Peter, Moses, or Jesus, they would not have done as the people in those days did to them; but at the same time they would take their lives if they could and do just

My parents asked me a question last night because my dad has been preparing and teaching early church history lessons for his primary kids... My response--"Joseph didn't really use the plates to translate at all, there isn't actually a single account of him reading off the plates, he just used the seer stone...the plates were either left on a table to not be touched covered up, or hidden in the woods." My dad responds..."you mean the urim and thumim" .... side note-they still think I'm tbm, they just think I know a bunch of history, so they ask questions sometimes haha

Last week, a friend told me about a guy she talked to who does "spiritual healing". He's a member of the Church, doesn't charge for his services, incorporates the Gospel and Christ into his practice, and uses the priesthood. It sounded iffy to me, and she admitted it sounded weird, but said she talked to him a few times and thought it helped her with some digestive problems she's been having for a while.

I figured there was no harm in trying it once or twice. The therapy clinic I go to (like many these days) pulls some of their ideas from Eastern philosophy and medicine (mindfulness meditation, thinking of emotions as energy, etc.), so while I don't necessarily believe in energy healing, I'm more open to it than I was 2 years ago.

My first session was yesterday. I was nervous, but it went fine. I can go into more detail if it's helpful, but I just called him on the phone and he communicated with my spirit and released negative energies that were residing or trapped in my body. It didn't feel uncomfortable, just unusual. Kind of felt like getting a check up at the doctor, honestly, haha. Some things he said were kinda interesting and seem to be correlated with hard things I've gone through.

A few friends I've told about it are skeptical (understandably so). One friend argued that if energy healing really was legit and helpful, why would Church leaders not teach about it? Valid point. Afterward, I did some research on Christ-centered energy healing. Crazy stuff! Lots of people go off the rails with it. Certainly not mainstream.

People who are into energy healing say it's based on spiritual gifts and is only possible through Jesus Christ. It made me think of "superstitious" practices in the early church -- Oliver Cowdery's divining rod, Joseph Smith's seer stone, the Urim and Thummim (though some argue the divining rod and seer stone were a myth).

How do you see energy healing as compared to some of those superstitious practices in the early church, and compared to more generally-accepted spiritual gifts? Is Satan just really good at imitating the truth, and people are being deceived?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/divining-rods

http://www.conflictofjustice.com/originally-oliver-cowdery-divining-rod/

[http://www.conflictofjustice.com/joseph-smith-translation-book-of-mormo-roc

In the last few days here on reddit have been some discussions about the translation process of the Book of Mormon, and in two separate discussions I called the translation process revelatory. Both times my discussion partners were surprised by this, saying things like “‘revelatory process’ is new. We started saying that this decade. It was never anything other than a ‘translation process’ before,” and one of my discussion partners accused me of gaslighting for saying it was revelation instead of translation.

In addition, there are a couple of assumptions people commonly make when thinking about the translation of the Book of Mormon that I think are incorrect, and I want to introduce a neat little framework for conceptualizing the translation of the Book of Mormon.

#Translation as revelation

As I said above, it surprises me a bit that this needs to be mentioned. Joseph Smith said he translated by the gift and power of God. He could not read reformed egyptian, obviously, and had no way of translating outside of the divine. That’s not to say that he wasn’t given an accurate translation of the text on the plates - I’m not making a wishy-washy new-age claim here that the plates were a catalyst for revelation - but simply that the words he spoke during translation were a function of information that entered his mind via a conduit to the godhead rather than by a natural process that scholars might use when translating. It's not a comment on the historicity.

At the risk of being accused of gaslighting, I’ll give some examples that support the concept of translation by revelation. I’ll only use well-known or canonical examples, because if I use obscure ones, well then that’s just plain ol’ gaslightin’.

In the Wentworth letter Joseph Smith said:

>With the records was found a curious instrument which the ancients called “Urim and Thummim,” which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record, by the gift and power of God.

Medium here is in the sense of a communication relay - the translation was delivered to him through the Urim and Thummim, and it’s difficult to describe how that would have happened except through revelation.

The Urim and Thummim, by the way, are described in Mosiah 28 and it is pointed out there that whoever used them was a seer - again a reference to revelation. Earlier in Mosiah a seer is described as a revelator and

Came across this in some research. I have not seen this before, so I think it's obscure. Source: "'Manuscript Found' or the absurdities of the 'Spaulding Story', 11th book of the Faith Promoting Series, published by the Juvenile Instructor Office, 1883.

First quote, taken from a letter to the Chicago Tribune by David Whitmer, 1881 (on page 83):

> The tablets or plates were translated by Smith, who used a small oval or kidney-shaped stone, called Urim and Thummim, that seemed endowed with the marvelous power of converting the characters on the plates, when used by Smith, into English, who would then dictate to Cowdrey what to write. Frequently one character would make two lines of manuscript while others made but a word or two words. Mr. Whitmer emphatically asserts, as did Harris and Cowdery, that while Smith was dictating the translation he had no manuscript notes or other means of knowledge, save the Seer stone and the characters as shown on the plates, he being present and cognizant how it was done.

Second quote, from page 85 of the same book quoting Deseret Evening News. > The next error is that the seer stone which Joseph used in the translation 'was called Urim and Thummim.' The instrument thus denominated was composed of two crystal stones 'set in the two rims of a bow.' The seer stone was separate and distinct from the Urim and Thummim. The latter was delivered to the angel as well as the plates after the translation was completed; the former remained with the Church and is now in the possession of the President.

My take:

1. Very cool to have another first hand source that it really was the small oval stone (i.e. brown) rather than the white stone used for the book of mormon "translation".

2. Funny that even in a faith promoting book they have to discount one of the three witnesses just to make their (factually incorrect) story work.

Link to full manuscript on Google Books

Edit: Typo; "not" to "now"

At Joseph Smith's request, William Clayton scribed Doctrine & Covenants 132 on July 12, 1843. The story as told by Clayton:

"He (Joseph) then requested me to get paper and prepare to write. Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim, but Joseph, in reply, said he did not need to, for he knew the revelation perfectly from beginning to end.

Joseph and Hyrum then sat down, and Joseph commenced to dictate the Revelation on Celestial marriage, and I wrote it, sentence by sentence as he dictated. After the whole was written, Joseph asked me to read it through, slowly and carefully, which I did, and he pronounced it correct. He then remarked that there was much more that he could write, on the same subject, but what was written was sufficient for the present".

Joseph spoke 66 verses, long and intricate in nature, word for word, BY MEMORY to William Clayton. When Clayton read it back to Joseph, he said it was all correct. Section 132 is the equivalent to 8 pages of (modern day) Book of Mormon. At that pace, Joseph could have spoken the entire BoM in 66 sittings.

Two weeks ago, a very nice guy from the Elder's quorum in my ward showed up in the evening to my house. I am guessing that someone finally noticed a pretty long lack of attendance from me. When he asked how I was doing I told him that I was great and that work has just been really busy lately. He told me that they were wanting to set me up with a ministering partner. After a really short exchange on my patio, we parted ways.

That evening I asked myself what I was hiding? Why don't I just be honest with people? So I made a decision that evening to go in and sit down with the bishop of my ward and tell him why I haven't been to church much in the past year and a half. The truth is that until today I was still on the roles as a primary teacher in my ward with my wife. She still teaches and the excuse that we have maintained until now is the same that I had relayed to the elder's quorum presidency member- I have been super busy with work.

The fact is that a little over a year and a half ago I was an active, happy member that stumbled upon the church essays. I was born in the church, served a mission, married in the temple, had an intellectual belief in the gospel based in the Book of Mormon. I was unaware of several things contained in the essays for 30+ years of my life. I was completely unaware of Joseph Smith's polygamous relationships, let alone polyandry and 14 year old child brides. The Book of Abraham was always a literal translation from scrolls that were written by the hand of Abraham himself. I had at one point laughed at the idea of the rock in the hat translation when someone with anti-Mormon propaganda presented me with a pamphlet on my mission (I thought that maybe they had been incorrectly influenced by the South Park episode). The Native Americans were *ALL* the literal descendants of Nephites and Lamanites. Blacks and the priesthood/lack of temple blessings was always something that I never thought much about, although I was taught in seminary and believed that like the Cain and the Lamanites, the dark skin was a curse from God and had played a role. I believed in a single, mirac

It seems to me the Urim and Thummim of Lev 8:8 is not all that dissimilar to a Ouija board?