Coriolanus Puns

So, I decided that it was time for a reread of BSS and going through it, I really was focusing on the question of whether or not there was a drastic evolution of President Snow throughout the book, or if it was just time for him to show his true colors.

After going through it all again, despite his many flaws, I don't think that the evil, manipulative person was ever the destiny for young Coriolanus Snow.

It seems as though he was working hard trying to return his family to the prestige they once enjoyed.
I feel as though his whole evolution came down to the way you would answer the question Dr. Gaul asked, "why do we have the hunger games?"

Early on, it seems clear that his answer was as control, show they have power, etc. But, I think as soon as he went to rescue Sejanus and beat Bobbin to a pulp, he realized that there was something to what Dr. Gaul said, they are all animalistic.

His behavior while giving Lucy Gray the ability to sneak rat poison and protecting her from snakes still wasn't a sign of evil in the future. While this was ultimately helping to dictate his future with control, it's hard to see this as a sign of evil, since he wasn't trying to make more kids die, just tweak the outcome of which. But, it does show a step down the path to his change.

A new step down the path of change seems to come as he is a peacekeeper and finds out that the man Arlo had blown an explosive. He admits to not really seeing why the man did it, but Coryo is sure that it was stupid and pointless. This is the moment where I see the true change coming. In this minor moment, he sees the potential chaos, he sees that everything is so fragile, and he feels as though he can't be in this situation anymore.

Then, the obvious comes. He kills Mayfair for the potential problem she could cause, even when his involvement could be explained away. Then, he reports Sejanus to clear his path to his new life, although still under the guise of protection. Then, the moment with Lucy Gray where he realizes that he can absolutely wipe his life clean and move on to a new place with nothing haunting him. This is the moment where I think he turns the corner from just trying to manipulate situations to truly losing any moral compass. I think here is where he fully buys in to what Dr. Gaul says; people are animalistic by nature. He chooses to attack her for no reason other than his own personal game. He doesn't feel like she'll rat him out, he just will do anything

Which is the better play? If you were on a desert island and had to choose one of these two, what would it be?

It is impossible to exagerate how underrated this play is. It should be in all 10 lists but I have never seen it in a single one. Even I myself heard about this play only last week. And I have only finished reading it just now. To my mind, Coriolanus up there with hamlet, Macbeth and midsummer night's dream. I would like to make this a platform for discussing this marvelous play. Any insight or analysis (whether it be about the charecters or themes) is welcomed here.

PS: I have just come to realise that today is the bard's birthday and I read this play today. I mean, what are the chances.

So he betrays Lucy at the end, and when I finished the book, I hated him so much that I think it ruined the book for me, not in a bad way, but in a way that I wouldn't be able to reread it because of how much I disdain Snow, but the more I think about it, the more I pity him.

I think Coryo transformation to President Snow started while he's in the district, although the seeds have been planted before that, he's always thinking about Dr. Gaul's teaching in there, about chaos, control, and social contracts, and his paranoia runs wild there too, with Sejanus's lies, and his concern about Sejanus proven to be true.

I don't think Coryo ever tried to kill Sejanus, he's a Capitol boy, barely a young adult, and in his mind, they never really have a problem with the government, and if they did, the punishment is not severe, just like when Sejanus enters the arena, his father could just buy his way out of it. Even before he recorded Sejanus voice, he thought if he doesn't confess, he just have to report him to their superior himself, he didn't think it would be such a big deal, but after he record Sejanus voice, he regretted it, and he thought he should go and try to erase it, but convince himself that no one gonna listen to it, and even if they did, it'll be in Sejanus best interest because Sejanus will dig himself deeper and deeper while he's in the district, but even after this, he still have nightmares about him killing Sejanus, which came true, and when it did, we didn't see his reaction as cold, but rather sad, he cried for Sejanus, and everyone else, he even called himself monster for that.

And I think that's why Coryo tried to tune it out, tune the pain of killing Sejanus out by maybe blaming him for lying to him, that's why he got trust issues, he's traumatized by it, which ultimately lead to him hunting down Lucy. But even the night before that happens, he still thought that even if he have to die, Lucy will live on. The reason why he hunted Lucy is that he thought she's dangerous, that she might have manipulated him, and will try to kill him, but even then, he still tried to fight the paranoia backs, and the best he could do is to lower his guard, and sheath his weapon, he called out for her so he can speak to him (although I'm not sure if she did come out, it'll end any better), and even in this state, he still felt guilty about abandoning her, and when he spotted that she dropped her scarf, he imagined if she's there, she would tease him that she wou

I feel like BSS was the perfect villain origin story. I started out empathizing with Snow and actually liking his character, a little part of me even hoping that there was some other rational explanation for him being the same Coriolanus as the sick and twisted President Snow from THG that didn't require Coryo to turn evil, but that boy never stood a chance. There were sentences where I'd get that sinking feeling because the words sounded like they came straight out of President Snow's mouth, where I'd pause thinking "... please no. take that back right now."

Any type of empathy I felt for him when he expressed remorse following Sejanus' death (good god, I've never been this rattled by a character death in a book before) was completely obliterated by the way he took advantage of the Plinth's upon his return to the Capitol. This was different from when he was willing to get some money of Strabo after being practically forced to rescue Sejanus from the arena. Their time in district 12 made them brothers.

Very visually disturbing but not gratuitous violence and Vanessa Redgrave gives an incredible performance. Anyone else seen this one?

The fact that he couldn't see her and that he started shooting randomly until he finished the bulletts made me think that It was all in his mind,we all can agree that at that point of the book he was already becoming the crazy man that he is in the original three books

Disclaimer: I am neither a Shakespearian or a history scholar, I just have too much time to think during quarantine.

Coriolanus is a play about democracy, written under a time of totalitarian rule. As a modern audience, it's easy to see Caius Martius as a anti-democratic, near-dictator who holds contempt for the masses but at the same time he has heroic qualities: He is wrathful but powerful, and humble before power corrupts him. His foes, the Tribune's of the people, are written to be devious but in modern eyes they are also the only ones seeing the dangers of Martius' aggression and pride early on. Was the audience meant to sympathize with Martius' as a man before his time as he rages against democracy and the rule of people?

Or, was he a gray character already in the 1600hundreds? He chides the people openly for being fickle and untrustworthy, and most people watching the plays would be commoners and offended by his outbursts, right?

What do you guys think?

I need this for my undergrad thesis so I'd like to get something more professional than just downloading the first free PDF I find as is my custom lol but I can't find anything in my town's bookstore. Is there any edition you had a good experience with?

I love the duality between him and some of the other characters.

I have to say: when I was younger, I was never interested in Coriolanus. I tried picking it up a few times, but whenever I tried reading it, I was always unimpressed, and I actually dismissed it as a bad Julius Caesar rip-off the first time I read it. It's one of the few Shakespeare plays that I tossed to the wayside, and barely ever looked at again. That is, until this past couple of weeks. During the pandemic, my theatre company's been doing a play study workshop, and this month we're focusing on Coriolanus. And when I read it, I discovered that not only is it definitely not a Julius Caesar clone in the slightest, but that it's also a brilliant play. I love the plot, the characters, the dialogue, everything about it. It's in fact rapidly becoming one of my favorite Shakespeare plays the more times I reread it. Certainly, the play can be seen as one-dimensional, which it is, but in my opinion that makes it all the better. It tells a great story with no added complexity (something I enjoy for the most part, but in this case I think it can go without), and I really admire the way that Caius Martius was written. He's essentially the one main character of a Shakespeare play that is completely unlikeable from start to finish, a complete asshole in the beginning and a complete asshole to the end, and I think that makes him one of the most unique main characters in the entire canon: the perfect antihero (and, in some ways, it feels like Aufidius is the protagonist by the end). Of course, these are only my thoughts on it. I want to hear what you all think. Did you think the way I did when I was younger? Have you always enjoyed it? Do you utterly despise it? I'm curious to find out.

It seems like they did (especially Maude Ivory) but is that the case?

I looked up the name Coriolanus because I was curious where it came from and.... “Coriolanus is the name given to a Roman general after his military success against various uprisings challenging the government of Rome. Following this success, Coriolanus becomes active in politics and seeks political leadership. His temperament is unsuited for popular leadership and he is quickly deposed, whereupon he aligns himself to set matters straight according to his own will. The alliances he forges along the way result in his ultimate downfall.”

I was personally more interested in Coriolanus as a character by the end of one book than I was with Katniss by the end of three. Just wondering if anyone felt the same way.

I love the juxtaposition of the opening scenes of Hunger Games and Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. Katniss and Coriolanus aren’t so different: hungry, have a traumatic history, dead/absent parents, children who sort of had to raise themselves.

But Katniss is focused on risking her own life to feed her mother and sister and spending time with Gale who she has built a trusting relationship with over time.

Meanwhile Coriolanus is complaining about cabbage and waiting impatiently for his cousin to possibly trade sexual favors so that he can wear a pretty shirt which will help him go to college but won’t benefit anyone other than him in any way. He has no friends, just peers, all of whom he looks down on. He eats every day at school and never brings anything home for Tigris who pays the bills and always gives him the larger portions of the food they do have at home. (He does steal food for Lucy, showing he’s not above stealing, but only when if benefits him, because he won’t get a scholarship if his tribute dies.)

People who say Coriolanus had a “slow descent” into evil and had some redeeming qualities didn’t read the same book I did.

Imagine.

Now, I don’t believe I’ll get many people to agree when I say this wasn’t only possible, but probable; if only Snow had fled from 12 with Sejanus and Lucy Grey. (Perhaps if the jabberjay was erased)

Snow is paranoid, cunning, and mostly devoid of sympathy. This is not in question. But it’s also why he would always seek and gain power. It’s what he craves, and he has the means to get it.

Snow was a monster at the end, but he didn’t have to be. People aren’t set in stone. They change. And who better to cultivate a stable relationship with?

Lucy Grey is an excellent maniplulator of people, and just as cunning. She’d have been able to kill anyone else at the old shack. And she loved Snow, truly.

Sejanus was overflowing with sympathy and good will. So much that it killed him. Sejanus really would’ve died in the arena if snow hadn’t gone after him. He could use a healthy dose of paranoia and caution.

From there, the three find or are found by District 13. Snow craves the chance to reclaim what is rightfully his, but keeps Lucy and Sejanus close. Together, they convince him that the hunger games must end, and they all work together to see it happen.

What do you guys think?

First off, I don't think Coryo ever loved Lucy Gray in a way I'd actually consider love, meaning I don't think he cared for her in a way where he felt her life was at least equally worthy to his. He was always focused on owning her, having power over her, so her power could be his. She has a different kind of power than he does, and he studies it in order to control it. That's not love. He liked kissing her, but to me that was more about hormones than love. (The kisses were also about feeling that he'd won her over and that meant he'd be able to control her.)

Anyway, I'm putting my viewpoint out there to start because I've read a lot of comments on this sub from others who see it differently, who think he loved her until a certain point, then he suddenly got evil. I don't know if it's nature or nurture with Coryo, but whenever empathy tries to sneak in, he shuts it down right away.

So... Lucy... This is what I'm still mulling over (I just finished the book yesterday). Did she love Coryo, and if so, when did she stop (if she stopped)? She talks about love vs trust. I wonder at what points she trusted him.

I wouldn't blame her for a second for pretending to love him in order to survive, but I'm curious if others think she did. At first, I read it as she truly was falling for him, because when I imagine being in her position in the Hunger Games and being treated by him the way she was (because she probably wouldn't know he was manipulating her the whole time), it would be natural to pour your love into this one person who seemed to be there for you no matter what. So I read it like she loved him in the Capitol, but then he said some effed up stuff in District 12 and the bloom was off the rose. Right as she's out the door of the lake cabin to get the katniss, she says, "Two weeks can make a lot of difference," and I took that to mean she had seen the real him. (I think the killed 3 line is part of that, but really it's the whole time he's been in 12 that's making her not trust him.)

Anyway, that's how I read it at first. But the more I think about it the more I think maybe she never trusted him or loved him. Maybe he was trying to benefit from her power and she was trying to benefit from his. Of course, he wanted all the power in the known world, and she was just trying to survive, so I would blame him for his manipulation, but I wouldn't blame her. When she says how she would prostitute herself if that's what it would take to care for Maude Ivory, I wonde

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to Shakespeare except the Romeo and Juliet jazz.

I've been interested in watching Coriolanus but I cannot find anywhere online where I can watch/purchase a recording. Any help would be greatly appreciated

My friend feels Benedict Cumberbatch or perhaps if he were younger, Kenneth Branagh, I quite loved Fiennes. What about Iwan Rheon?.

I have to confess that I liked Coryo, as vain and entitled as he was he had his sympathetic points. Up until he makes his choices and becomes an utter bastard. When did you turn against him?

Coriolanus, and audio described version. I had posted a download link yesterday, but this new link has reduced file size for non audio described. Enjoy!!

I can’t help but think it could’ve had more potential if Lucy were the protagonist instead. What do you guys think? I know this one had a lot to do with the small details and giving peoples backgrounds and origins and all that but I mean.. maybe even if it went back and forth between their povs, which I’m pretty sure was done in one of the other books as well with peta and Katniss, I could see that livening up a lot of the slow parts. Idk guys idk

Not sure about anyone else, but I’ve reread the original HG series almost a dozen times. I started BSS last night, and was shocked that It was Coriolanus Snow instead of Cornelius Snow.

I was absolutely certain his name was spelled Cornelius in the books, and I assumed a plot point was that he changed his name at some point. NOPE. I had to dig up my old copies of the books to confirm that it was Coriolanus the whole time.

Am I alone in this?