Covenant theology Puns

If one holds to a Reform theological view and and someone else holds another view would the one with the differing view be holding to a view of a different Christ Jesus and gospel? Curious to hear your thoughts.

The topic is very complex and I just watched a video on Mid-Acts Dispensationalists (which was well done) but I don't really grasp the 2 sides of Dis vs Cov debate

I’m a more recent Reformed Baptist turned Presbyterian (baptize your babies, y’all). This has been one of the objections I’ve enjoyed most from my RB friends. We get into deep discussion examining Genesis 12–17 and, without a doubt, the question regarding the land promises that were also given to Abraham are mentioned.

I know sufficient enough answers for the intents of our discussions regarding the Covenant and infant baptism, but I’m curious what paedobaptists here have to say as well. From their perspective, I’ll give it to them, it sounds like a strong argument challenging our consistency. What say you, r/Reformed? Is this a valid objection or just an argumental “gotcha”?

Both of these terms refer to different Christian theological approaches to the Mosaic Covenant specifically and Judaism more generally. Supercessionism refers to the idea that the Mosaic Covenant has been dissolved by Jesus' advent, and as a result that modern Judaism is no "better off" (I'm not sure how to phrase this more precisely without either confounding the point or implying non-Orthodox worldviews about legalistic models of sin and redemption) than any other non-Christian faith. Dual Covenant theology on the other hand holds that the Mosaic Covenant remains valid, and that Israel will be redeemed for the sake of the Covenant perhaps via a Christian model but without requiring belief in Christianity. Does Orthodoxy hold a predominant or unified view on this matter, and if so on what reasoning?

There's plenty of biblical passages that can and have been mentioned in support of either point that I may mention as they become relevant, but I hardly see the need to present either prematurely.

This question came to me when I heard a Christian author assert strongly his belief that God was eternally faithful to His covenants, and so His covenant with the Jewish people (and by extension the state of Israel) remained as active as ever.

This seems to stand in stark contrast to how Christians have viewed (and treated) Jews historically, but I wondered if there might be at least some hints of this concept in the past.

There have been a number of users in this sub asking about Reformed/Orthodox Covenant Theology, so I am providing a few resources that have helped me in my journey as a Reformed lay person. The Reformed tradition stands firmly upon Covenant Theology in the Westminster Standards and Three Forms of Unity, with massive debt owed to the apostle Paul, Calvin, Augustine, Vos, and others. Our confessional standards are the most reliable interpretation and summarization of the teaching of Scripture, and they are centered on the covenant. Covenant theology is Christian theology because it flows from Scripture. It’s all centered upon the Triune God and his grace. Everything we have as Christians is because of grace. The way that God interacts with every single human being is by way of covenant:

WCF Chapter 7 - Of God’s Covenant with Man.

Section 1.) The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express by way of covenant. Isa 40:13-17; Job 9:32,33; 1Sa 2:25; Ps 113:5,6; Ps 100:2,3; Job 22:2,3; Job 35:7,8; Lk 17:10; Ac 17:24,25

Check out these resources as an intro:

• WCF CH7: http://crowncovenantchurch.org/confessions/WestminsterCOF.aspx?QuestionID=7&pageid=0&confession=true&q=Chapter+7+-+Of+God%25u2019s+Covenant+with+Man
• https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/vos_covenant.html
• https://www.monergism.com/covenant-grace-ebook
• Paul, the Covenant Theologian: https://kerux.com/doc/2202A4.asp
• https://rfpa.org/blogs/news/herman-bavinck-on-gods-covenant-of-grace
• https://reformedforum.org/podcasts/ctc655/
• https://reformedforum.org/courses/introduction-to-covenant-theology/

I hope you find these resources helpful and encouraging. Feel free to post any questions below. Godspeed in the eschatological Lamb.

Would love to hear some good book recommendations for explaining covenant theology. …….Bueller?

Okay, this may or may not be the right sub for this, but I saw a recent post discussing why some well known pastors, typically thought of as reformed, aren't truly reformed in their theology. One major thing that was brought up was whether they believed in covenant theology or were dispensationalist. I've heard the terms before, but I don't really know what they mean. I looked them up and read about them on Wikipedia (I know) but I didn't really get a clear understanding of what either really was or what the differences are. Thanks in advance for helping explain it to me!

My mom is a dispensationalist, and she insists that the covenant that brings eternal life is totally separate from the land covenant. I thought that the land and the eternal life are and always have been part of the same covenant just with various renewals and amendments. So I would say that you can't say that the land covenant belongs to one group and the eternal life belongs to the other; if you have one, you necessarily have the other.

Basically, I thought that if you are circumcised of heart then you are one of God's people, a descendant of Abraham, so you get the promises (land, life). And if you aren't, you don't. As Christians, we inherit the land (extended to include the whole earth) and eternal life here as a result of being in Christ.

Have I got something wrong? Is the land really a separate covenant? Isn't everything supposed to be fulfilled in Christ?

There have been several posts lately asking questions about either covenant theology or dispensationalism. I've perused the wiki and found no specific reading recommendations for either covenant theology or dispensationalism. The posts themselves have been helpful to me in understanding very high-level differences between the two, but I'd like to dive deeper into both to get a better understanding.

What are your reading recommendations for covenant theology or dispensationalism?

Edit: Thanks everyone for the recommendations! Now to find time to actually read them. :)

A common charge by Dispensationalists is that, though their system is of recent origin, so too is that of Covenant Theology. They usually point to the 17th century for the start of CT. I know that the modern system of CT began within a decade of Luther nailing his theses to the church doors but what about before then? Heidelblog.net mentions a statement by Augustine from his City of God but doesn't give any specific from before Augustine https://heidelblog.net/2015/08/a-brief-history-of-covenant-theology/. Both that blog post as well as several other resources mention the church fathers using or holding a nacent theology of the covenants but give no specifics.

Are there specific examples prior to Augustine of what can be seen as early developments of what we now know as Reformed Covenant Theology (for instance understanding of the Covenant of Redemption, Covenant or Grace, or Covenant of Works)? Are there any published works that deal directly with this?

So I’m a ThM student at Dallas Theological Seminary (known for their Dispensational views), and they constantly emphasize their “literal or plain interpretation” of the text. For those of you who know the details of what I’m talking about, how would you explain the actual different hermeneutical (as opposed to theological) approaches to the scriptures (especially to the OT). I’ve read Dispensationalism by Ryrie and Christ of the Covenants by Palmer, so I get the theological differences. But I’m missing the key passages that they interpret differently (and why) that leads to these major divergence in (1) amil and premil, and (2) whether there is a future for national Israel or simply a mass Jewish conversion event. I know there are other key differences, like continuity and discontinuity between the Abrahamic and mosaic covenants, but even guys like Horton see discontinuity, and he’s major reformed. This is something I’ve been thinking about and researching for a decent amount of time, and I’ve basically got my hands open simply looking for what the Bible says. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Summery of Dispensation theology.

https://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html

Summery of Covenant theology

https://www.gotquestions.org/covenant-theology.html

These doctrines don't effect Salvation, they are just food for thought.

How should we from a Reformed Covenant Theology perspective view and address foreign policy as it relates to the relations between Israel and Palestine? How would and would it not differ from the way Dispensationalists address it?

Hello All,

I know I am probably opening a can of worms here. However, this is a topic that I am not very familiar with at all. I’m sure I have an opinion about this, I just don’t know the words to express that.

I have heard a lot about the criticism of John MacArthur for his dispensationalist leanings in the reformed community. I never knew that any such controversy surrounded JMac and would like to be more informed about this issue going forward.

If anybody could shed some light on this and try to not only explain the meaning, but why a believer should care about the distinction, that would be awesome!

There have been some users in this sub asking about Reformed/Orthodox Covenant Theology, so I am providing a few resources that have helped me in my journey as a Presbyterian/Reformed lay person. The Reformed tradition stands firmly upon Covenant Theology in the Westminster Standards and Three Forms of Unity, with massive debt owed to the apostle Paul, Calvin, Augustine, Vos, and others. Our confessional standards are the most reliable interpretation and summarization of the teaching of Scripture, and they are centered on the covenant. Covenant theology is Christian theology because it flows from Scripture. It’s all centered upon the Triune God and his grace. Everything we have as Christians is because of grace. As the reformers have repeatedly stated, Reformed Christianity is the only truly grace-centered and Christ-centered religion. The way that God interacts with every single human being is by way of covenant:

WCF Chapter 7 - Of God’s Covenant with Man.

Section 1.) The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express by way of covenant. Isa 40:13-17; Job 9:32,33; 1Sa 2:25; Ps 113:5,6; Ps 100:2,3; Job 22:2,3; Job 35:7,8; Lk 17:10; Ac 17:24,25

Section 2.) The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,(1) wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity,(2) upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.(3) (1) Gal 3:12 (2) Ro 10:5; Ro 5:12-20 (3) Ge 2:17; Gal 3:10

Section 3.) Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,(1) commonly called the Covenant of Grace, whereby He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved;(2) and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.(3) (1) Gal 3:21; Ro 8:3; Ro 3:20,21; Ge 3:15; Isa 42:6 (2) Mk 16:15,16; Jn 3:16; Ro 10:6,9; Gal 3:11 (3) Eze 36:26,27; Jn 6:44,45

Section 4.) This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in the Scripture by the name of a Testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the testato

What role does it play in the replacement of circumcision as the sign of the Covenant of Grace? John’s purpose was to prepare the way for Jesus’ ministry, is his use of baptism also fulfilling this objective? For example: John’s baptism of forgiveness w/ water is a shadow of Jesus baptism with the holy spirit?

Brothers and sisters in Christ, hello, today I want to tell you my personally journey. As a young lad, I have terrible bipolar disorder and anxiety and ADHD, so the preaching about this whole premillennialism made me uncomfortable and annoyed. Everytime I see a video about the “signs of end time” I would be tense and asked God if that’s true. I hate to imagine this since I wanted to marry, have kids, be a missionary or apologist. And I hate it when people on YouTube would connect vague, obscure, or even insignificant events to prophecies in the Old Testament. I also hate how many premillennialists are also conspiracy theorists. I absolutely hate how people “rightly divide” the New Testament by discarding anything but what Paul wrote. My favorite apostle is John, and I can’t find any contradictions between Paul and John, so I am antipathetic toward dispensationalists. Reading some church history and church fathers however changed my views. Now I’m an amillennialist. May peace be unto you and God bless.

Can anyone here describe the differences (if any) between Cruciform Theology, Trinitarian Theology (the Christ-centred version rather than a general belief in the Trinity) and New Covenant Theology?

I grew up in a Jewish household, but I’ve spent the last year reading the Bible and trying to understand Christian belief. I just finished reading Tabletalk’s October issue (Ligonier’s magazine) which had a focused discussion on covenant theology. I really enjoyed the read, and I’d love to grow my understanding of different hermeneutical approaches to the scriptures. Would anyone be able to recommend books on the subject of covenant theology and dispensationalism?

Edit: Thank you everyone for your suggestions!

My interest lately has been determining which hermeneutic is the most Biblical. I have always been raised to believe that my church fell into a dispensational approach but, in studying this question, there is no doubt I fall into a progressive dispensational (erring to the side of progressive covenantal) approach.

I’m just looking for thoughtful insights and resources on this. What I have found has been that if I listen to one person give a lecture on it, they tend to mischaracterize the other side. I find this very frustrating when trying to take an unbiased approach and see all sides fairly based on their merits.

I’ve read “Three views on Israel and the Church: perspectives on Romans 9-11” but disliked the demeaning writing style of the Covenantal guy (Merkle) so much that I feel I didn’t mentally give it a fair shot.

Any resources or insights to help parse this out further would be appreciated.

Edited to add: Has anyone else out there had a personal knockdown drag out issue trying to hammer these things out for themselves? I feel like I run into resources that merely offer a defense of one position or the other (understandably) but I want to start with a blank slate and evaluate all by their merits. If you’ve been through that, I would be really interested in commiserating (haha) with you.

I don’t have it all figured out and a lot of smart people come down a lot of different ways on this. I just don’t accept that my church’s view needs defending as much as it needs evaluating.

Can those under the old covenant come under the new covenant and be saved?

Hello,

I have been a longtime subscriber of this subreddit and have gleaned a ton of amazing wisdom, help, and info from the community and am super thankful it. I have some questions about Covenant Theology that I haven't been able to find a clear answer on.

Some background information: I come from a strongly dispensational church (leadership very close to Grace Community Church and MacArthur) but in the last couple of years I have some friends who have been getting me to think about the dispy v cov debate. After reading some books like *”Sacred Bond” *by Michael Brown, “Covenant Theology” by Michael Horton, and *”Unfolding the mystery” *by Edmund Clowney, I think I have settled on the idea of the Cov of Grace and that there has only been one ”people of god” being ”those who are of faith” (Gal 3).

But because of my training at the church I have grown up in, I find it very hard to leave the premillennial view of the end times. Growing up I was given many examples of Old Testament "promises" and "prophecies" (primarily in the major/minor prophets) that seem to indicate a physical and literal kingdom of God coming to fruition on earth. I don't have exact references for these but one that comes to mind is the whole "lion lays with the lamb" passage.

So my questions are: how does the reformed community (cov-theology people) deal with those passages in the old/New Testament that seem to be indicating a literal/physical kingdom and allegorizes these "promises" as being fulfilled in Christ? And is there any good resources (i.e. books, videos, podcasts) to help me understand this.

I've been told that this deals with Biblical Theology and the concept that "scripture interprets scripture" but I haven't found anything that specifically deals with this issue

I fully admit my lack of knowledge in this area and I apologize if I misrepresented any viewpoint. I feel like the dispy vs cov debate is something that is very important and that I should be confident in where I stand.

Does anyone have any recommendations for children's books that teach very simply the basics of Biblical Theology, creation-fall-redemption-consummation, major covenants, etc? We have the Jesus Storybook Bible, but I'm thinking something that can be read with a child in one sitting.

I just finished the book * Covenant Theology: a Reformed Baptist Primer * By Douglas Van Dorn and had some questions on how traditional Reformed Covenant Theology would respond to some of their objections.

I will put in quotes some of the objections and verses they used in their book:

“As the old Reformed Baptist Hercules Collins wrote, ‘Those that argue for their infant-seeds baptism from circumcision being entailed unto Abraham's seed, may as well argue and say, the priesthood was by a covenant entailed on the tribe of Levi and his seed, therefore the ministry is entailed upon gospel-preachers and their seed: as this cannot be warranted, no more can the other.’”

“When we see distinct covenants, as the Bible does, it is plain as day that baptism does not replace circumcision, because baptism fulfills baptism.”

“In other covenants, the children are the children of the covenant head. The children in the Abrahamic covenant are sons of Abraham; the children in the Levitical covenant are sons of Aaron; the children in the Davidic covenant are sons of David; and so on.”

“In the new covenant, the children of the covenant are sons of Christ and to be his son you have to be “born again” (John 3:3-7). Jesus says, ‘Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven’“

“In Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith” Galatians 3:26

“This is all typified in the OT, but it is only typological. Biological birth is typological of the new birth; it does not transfer to the new covenant. The NT makes clear, ‘If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did’ (John 8:39). How can this be? Because, ‘It is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham’ (Gal 3:7). Through faith, he is the father of us all (Rom 4:16). To return to the idea of infants just being born automatically into the new covenant is to stay in the shadows of the old covenant.”

What are some of the responses and refutations you could give to these objections?

My spiritual life has been quite neglected for a while now and as I get back into going to church every Sunday, I’d like to actually start doing some more research to fully understand my faith and beliefs. Because of my flakiness, I need something that is easy to listen to or watch so I don’t end up dropping the Word or my research again.

Most of my friends are reformed Baptists who adhere to covenant theology. I became a Christian later in life so my understanding of covenant theology and dispensationalism is quite elementary. I’d really like to learn more about what divides them (the mechanics of Israel, for example) and why. Any resources provided would be greatly greatly appreciated.

Thank you!!

EDIT: Any resources debunking/criticizing one system from the viewpoint of the other would be greatly appreciated as well!!

Is the Lutheran concept of law the same as the covenant of works? And the gospel the covenant of grace?

Encountered these terms, no idea what they mean, requesting an explanation from someone who knows. The last one was specifically mentioned as in this phrase, "Eschatological Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon." What does that mean? This person was talking about how it's not just The Lord who wants to rule from Jerusalem, Satan also wants to. But I don't know what Eschatological Jerusalem means period, or what Mystery Babylon means in this context, so could use help there.

What are the differences of the two teachings? What is the Reformed Baptists' view on the covenant theology? What/how did Arthur Pink and John Owen understand the Covenant theology?