I am going to leave both sides at 100 amp service, and install a new panel on each side, and all new breakers, etc. I will then be running all new 12/2 & 10/2 romex to every single room and gangbox in the home...
Any good advice before I take on this big project? I will be hiring a licensed electrician to do all the permitting work and to tie in the panel and anything else he wants to do.
A company called Federal Pacific Electrical developed a style of residential electrical load center and circuit breaker called 'Stab-Lok'. These had a fatal design flaw that can cause the panel & breakers to overheat and cause a fire. In short, they sometimes jam instead of tripping, fail to do their job to trip when the circuit is overloaded, potentially causing a fire. They got their UL certification with falsified documents and are unsafe. It is good practice to replace any and all Stab-Lok panels immediately, even if they show no signs of failure, wear, or damage, because the issue is a design flaw. They can exhibit the issue without warning and cause a major fire.
Almost 3000 homes fires occur each year due to Stab-Lok breakers and panels. They were never recalled due to a nasty hiccup in the bureaucratic process. You can read more about this regulatory whole train wreck in the links below.
- You can tell if your panel is affected by the brand. If it says FPE, Federal Pacific, Federal Pioneer, Zinsco, or 'Stab-Lok' anywhere on it, you should be concerned. Certain products sold by Schneider Electric in Canada are also affected. There are other, less common brands that are affected. If you're not sure, Google the brand. If it says Square-D, Cutler-Hammer, Eaton, GE, Siemens, or other brands of load centers, the panel isn't affected by this particular issue.
- Breakers working satisfactorily for a number of years without issue means nothing. Any Stab-Lok breaker can exhibit the defect at any time and burn your house down.
- Knowingly keeping a Stab-Lok panel in service could have ramifications for home insurance purposes if the panel causes a fire.
- Some electricians are aware of the issue, some are not. Do your own research instead of relying on a single electrician's opinion, especially ones who did a pre-sale inspection paid for by the seller of a home or were not working in the industry in the early 80s when this issue came to light.
- Replacing just the breakers is not a proven or likely method to reduce or eliminate risk, as the issue was a design flaw from the beginning. There are no breakers available that fit Stab-Lok panels that hold a valid (non-falsified) UL rating. Do not attempt to test the breakers by overloading, as this is can cause a fire in a location you cannot get to.
Go look at your breaker box. If it bears any of the brands above, call in an electrician to confirm your assessment of origin and get a quote on repla
... keep reading on reddit ➡As the title says, I'm considering upgrading my electric service and panel from 100A to 200A, so I'm wondering if anyone has done it recently and how much should I expect to pay? The house and wiring is not too old (1996).
Also if anyone has good recommendations, please feel free to let me know! Location is Banksville/Westwood, in case it matters.
Hi all. We're in the process of closing on a home that had extensive renovations, including a bunch of new wiring. There is still a bit of old K&T that remains but our home inspector said it should be fine as long as it hasn't been disturbed and that the work looked to be done professionally.
We just had an electrician over to check out potential situations related to insulation and he noticed that our electrical service cable is 150amps but our panel is only 100amps. He mentioned that this was almost certainly done without a permit and quoted us $565 to replace it correctly.
a) Is this a huge issue, mainly one of safety? It's an old two-storey home and the electrician even said it wouldn't be much of an issue unless we wanted to add a hot tub.
b) Is this a fair price to fix?
Just thought I'd share this update as it may help others in the future. About a year ago, I posted here looking for ideas on how to close out the electrical panels in my finished basement project (original post). Because the panels spanned two walls, I needed a way to conceal them without taking away too much floor space from the room or violated the local code. Suggested solutions included a 45deg closet wall, bi-fold doors etc.
After some more planning, I came up with this solution that solves all the issues. These sliding doors travel on heavy-duty drawer slides (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000008415229.html), arranged vertically. They glide nicely out of the way and give full access to the panels, while only taking away about 4" of depth to the wall. The doors themselves are simple 2x3 studs for the frame, with 5" tongue and groove for aesthetics.
This was an acceptable way to conceal the panels in my area.
Gallery: https://imgur.com/gallery/IOxoowJ
And no, this did not take 11 months to work on. Had a lot of framing, drywalling, and other things to do in that time as well. :).
My husband and I are in the process of buying our first house in the midwest (built in 1911, but mostly remodeled, as it is a flip). We have already negotiated the things in the inspection report the seller would fix, but one of the main concerns they wouldn't fix was the electrical panel.
Here is where I may be getting confused. The inspection report noted that the electrical service panel is outdated, double tapped, and a fire hazard. Obviously we want to replace that. Then my dad noticed the house only has 100 amp service. My question is, when we upgrade the panel (for safety as noted in the home inspection), do we upgrade straight to a 200 amp panel? At first, I was thinking these were 2 separate jobs each costing somewhere around $2k, but now from what I have been reading, it looks like replacing a panel is relatively cheap and the $2k would come in for upgrading to 200 amps?
I really just want to know what exactly I'm asking for when I get bids from the electricians and know about how much money we will need to have ready when we start the process. Thanks in advance!
Edit: thank you all so much for your thoughts! You all have given us lots to think about. At this point we plan to get an electrician in and review the inspection report and do his own inspection before close and get actual quotes on upgrading the panel. Thanks again for all your help!
I very recently moved into a 1920s-build house. The electrical appears to have largely been upgraded (Loomex/Romex throughout), but the service panel is a fairly old and obsolete Sylvania-GTE 100 amp fuse box (yes, I do plan on upgrading it to a 200 amp breaker box ASAP).
Yesterday I opened up the panel to wire a new dedicated circuit for a dishwasher and noticed a few peculiarities that I would really appreciate help with.
Most notably, the neutral and ground bars right bar, left bar are separate, and do not appear to be bonded (i.e., there are no jumpers between the ground and neutral bars, as far as I can see).
My understanding is that this is a potentially dangerous and non-compliant situation. Am I missing something here, or am I correct that these aren't bonded and therefore the system isn't properly grounded? Does the panel case itself serve as a jumper between them (that would be weird, right?), or could there be a jumper strap behind the case that I'm not seeing?
Another peculiarity is that I noticed a thick black cable dangling beside the (apparently recently upgraded from lead) water service. This cable emerges from the top of the fuse box, so I think it's a grounding wire. There is also a half-attached jumper spanning the water meter. Seems to me that the plumbing is not properly grounded, presenting a potential hazard if any line ever becomes energized. This is obviously an easy fix, but would there be any valid reason why this may have been left unattached?
I greatly appreciate any help and thank you in advance. Apologies if this isn't the right subreddit to post this.
Also, I will likely call in an electrician but today is a holiday here so I doubt I can get anyone out on short notice, and maybe I'm concerned over nothing.
Since you are allowed to mix ground and neutral on the same bus bar in the main panel because it's bonded, does that apply to the same circuit as well? I know that conceptually, it shouldn't matter, but was not sure if there was any code against it. I know that you aren't supposed to put neutral and ground from the same circuit/cable under the same lug, but was not sure if I had to also separate those cables to left and right bars when feeding in a new cable.
I want to build something like this along one wall of my garage, but the problem is that the electrical panel is awkwardly placed on the wall. A rough sketch of the wall is here and shows that it sits 36 in from the door. Had I laid this out, I would have placed it closer to the door, but the house was built 10 years before I was born so I got no input.
Code requires a 30” opening for the electrical panel (I don’t think it has to be centered), so that best case scenario that makes the 56” from the edge of the door to the far edge of the panel box unusable if abiding by code and assuming the 26” left by the door isn’t really practical for anything.
I’m looking for some suggestions on how to proceed with this in a way that will maximize my usable space and also not give me too many headaches down the road. The ideas I have are below and I’d love input or additional ideas.
-
Option 1 Just build in the area to the right of the panel box and leave that space open. It’ll probably collect stuff on the floor in front of it, but at least it’s relatively accessible. The big downside here is the lost space is actually 3x the lost space since it’s missing the 3 shelves that would be above it.
-
Option 2 Build the workbench under the panel but leaving it mostly accessible. I would build the shelves that the right and my workbench under the electrical panel. I plan to put pegboard above the bench but I would leave a space around the panel for access to it. This would mostly ensure the panel is accessible for me to turn breakers on/off or reset tripped breakers but wouldn’t meet code for access by an electrician.
A “more extreme” version of this would be to cover the panel with pegboard but cut out and hinge a door so that I can access the breakers. This again wouldn’t allow for accessibly.
- Option 3 I came up with this one while typing all of the other information and it seems like the best but I feel like I’m missing something. I wound basically do option 2. (With the door to access the breakers) but the workbench would be on locking casters so that it can be easily moved from in front of the panel. The support for the pegboard would also be built into the back of the rolling workbench so that the electrical panel is completely clear. This would also allow me to roll it to a different wall to meet code when selling the house at some po
I’m looking to buy a small to mid size generator to power most of the house expect the AC. I know inverter generators are better for electronics but can I use a standard UPS to ensure a proper sine wave instead of buying a more expensive inverter generator?
Also is what wattage is good enough for a fridge, deep freezer, lights, fans, Xbox, small tv, and other small electronics and charging phones? Would 3500 be good enough?
Hi! Recently bought a house and we need to upgrade the panel. We thought we could get it done before move in but the utility is delayed getting us a meter spot. So it might have to happen after move in. Electrician says it’s a 2 day job. Might be a dumb question but will the power be out that whole time? I want to know if we need to clean out the fridge or find somewhere else to stay for those days.
I've got the walls open for a kitchen remodel and just finished ripping out and replacing all the knob and tube wiring (woohoo!) Before I close the walls back up I want to make sure I have options in case I (or the next schmuck) needs to run more circuits in the future. There are open spots in the panel so we're good there. So my question is, what is the best way to go about this future proofing, do I:
- Pull one 12 gauge and one 14 gauge run to the panel and spool a bunch up in the attic. I have lots of extra romex and this would be easiest. In this case I wouldn't connect it within the panel (is it okay to leave it in the panel like this, within the romex insulated sheave). I'd probably terminate them in a jbox in the attic just so nobody in the future connected them in the panel and caused an issue. I'd also leave a note to this effect.
- Run a conduit down to the panel so someone can pull one or more runs in the future. In this case what kind of conduit should I use?
Everything I can find about this online is centered around future proofing for low voltage and using smurf tubing. Not about future proofing the actual service panel.
Any and all advice is appreciated!
EDIT: Thanks everyone for the feedback and advice. I decided to just pull two runs of romex into the panel (left disconnected with "spare" written on them) and spooled those in the attic with the ends in a jbox in case some idiot decides to connect them up without checking. After more research and looking at my setup I realized the conduit just wasn't going to work without doing some significant structural work above the panel in order to get it through some fire blocks and the top plate.
I am looking into purchasing a house in Indianapolis, Indiana, and the inspector was very concerned about the electrical service panel in the house. It appears that when the service was upgraded from fuses to circuit breakers, they put all the neutral and ground connections in the old fuse box, and the circuit breakers in another. I shared the photos with an electrician, and he said that it's illegal and should be corrected immediately. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. How bad is this and what do you think it would cost to fix?
My house’s break panel blows out pretty often. Even just using the microwave and toaster will cause it to go out. It’s going to cost about $7000 to fix it and have it upgrade from 100 to 200amps. Will this increase the value of home at all?
Edit: is this fair? I live in SoCal
Description of work.
Install one 200 amp panel, to replace existing 100 amp surface mount main meter panel, Install all new breakers and reconnect all new pipes to tha new panel, Create a new grounding system to properly ground new electrical panel run #4 wire from new electrical panel to the main water hose, How do you spell two ground rods to support grounding system............$2750
Run 1. 70 amp circuit from main panel to Garage and install 1. Sub panel 8/16 Spaces we will run new 1” conduit all the way from new panel to new garage $1975
Install 1 60 amp circuit for Tesla car inside garage with a Nema 1450 outlet $475
Install 1 20 amp circuit for garage door opener $175
Install one circuit for exercise equipment $175
Install one, 20 amp circuit for outlets in garage and installed 2-3 outlets out of that circuit $350
Run 1. 15 amp circuit to properly re feed existing lighting inside garage and outside garage and rewire lights $350
Provide and install two LED 4 foot lights inside garage with a new switch leg $350
Run install one new 20 amp circuit for office and add 2 electrical outlets on tha same room ,$620 For this work we might need to cut some drywall which we do not patch
Run 1 20 amp circuit for microwave on kitchen counter $280
Total estimated labor and material $7500
Edit 2: I really appreciate all this insight and discussion. I didn’t expect this. As a new investor this has been really informative and will pay dividends in my long career as a real estate investor. Thanks everyone.
I need more slots in order to power a radiant floor and also to have a separate 'clean' circuit for my server equipment. What is the best way to do this?
a) replace/extending my current 40 slot into a 60 slot panel? b) bring in a whole new service c) make a whole new sub panel
I am looking into purchasing a house in Indianapolis, Indiana, and the inspector was very concerned about the electrical service panel in the house. It appears that when the service was upgraded from fuses to circuit breakers, they put all the neutral and ground connections in the old fuse box, and the circuit breakers in another.
I shared the photos with an electrician, and he said that it's illegal and should be corrected immediately. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. How bad is this and what do you think it would cost to fix?
My husband and I are in the process of buying our first house in the midwest (built in 1911, but mostly remodeled, as it is a flip). We have already negotiated the things in the inspection report the seller would fix, but one of the main concerns they wouldn't fix was the electrical panel. Here is where I may be getting confused. The inspection report noted that the electrical service panel is outdated, double tapped, and a fire hazard. Obviously we want to replace that. Then my dad noticed the house only has 100 amp service. My question is, when we upgrade the panel (for safety as noted in the home inspection), do we upgrade straight to a 200 amp panel? At first, I was thinking these were 2 separate jobs each costing somewhere around $2k, but now from what I have been reading, it looks like replacing a panel is relatively cheap and the $2k would come in for upgrading to 200 amps? I really just want to know what exactly I'm asking for when I get bids from the electricians and know about how much money we will need to have ready when we start the process. Thanks in advance!
