Traditionalist Catholicism Puns

FYI, Traditionalist Catholicism is a form of Roman Catholicism that rejects later developments after the Second Catholic Council in the 20th century. Unfortunately, because of its conservative practices and beliefs, it inevitably attracted far-right types, who used it to refer themselves as "TradCath".

The TradCath subculture, especially the online version, could be somewhat hostile towards people who aren't European or straight. Considering that their subculture can be hostile towards non-Christians in general, and they sometimes celebrate the Crusades and other past controversies, I wonder what is Traditionalist Catholicism's stance on neopagans, like Asatru and Rodnovery?

This is not an attack on Catholicism, but I just want to know what is Traditionalist Catholicism's stance on neopagan religions. Thank you.

Wishing to ask the community here .. particularly ex Catholics and others familiar with what they think about Traditionalist Catholicism, and why you guys think it is having increased appeal among.. certain people... over political issues?

These also include "Sedevecantists" those who operate on a kind of autocephaly over refusal to recognizing Popes after the 1950s as being valid over theological decision back then that they saw as erroneous, as well as the brigading of such by rightwingers for ( largely) political reasons.

Any anecdotes regarding yourselves, relatives who are or where part of these movements, or who still have family that adhere to these or other groups

In my own opinion, there is really no difference between traditionalist Catholicism and Islam when it comes to women. Islam may be just a bit more extreme.

Traditionalist Catholicism is so hung up on having the female body covered. If the female body is so abhorrent and filthy, then why did God create the female body as the way it looks? It doesn't make any sense.

You always hear of stories about people leaving traditionalist Catholicism who were raised in it, but are there any stories of converts to traditionalist Catholicism who have left?

I do wonder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMUPBFeI5Hc

The sermon is about the fewness of the saved. I listened to it from beginning to end ... and wow! It's no wonder why traditionalist Catholics are scrupulous.

The following sums up this sermon quite well:

"You're damned if you do and damned if you don't"

I would imagine that traditionalist Catholics end up going either two ways (both of which have devastating mental issues):

1. Write a blank check (telling themselves that they are on good terms with God)
2. Become extremely scrupulous (believing that God is consistently documenting every single thought in their head)

I grew up evangelical and several years ago, during Benedict XVI's pontificate (2007, I think), I converted to Catholicism and joined the FSSP as a lay member. I remained within the Church as an ardent traditionalist until the end of 2018, when I ended up leaving after recognizing that Vatican II and Francis were flagrantly contradictory with past Church teaching. My reasons for leaving might resonate with some of you.

There were quite a few background problems with Christianity generally and Catholicism in particular that I'd never been able to answer and basically had to ignore in order to be able to enter and remain within the Church (like divine hiddenness, hell, errors in the Bible, etc.), but the most pressing problem to me was the contrast between Francis / Vatican II and pre-conciliar Catholicism. I had already been pretty familiar with the Church and the traditionalist controversy years before I became a Catholic, so when I decided to convert, I knew what I was getting into, and basically began RCIA with a stance of defensiveness and suspicion against the hierarchy and the post-conciliar theology right off the bat.

When Francis got elected, I got a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach, but reassured myself that nothing truly disastrous could happen because of the indefectibility of the Church. Then he started saying gay-affirming stuff and criticizing conservatism, and I got more nervous, but kept reassuring myself that he hadn't made any doctrinal pronouncements contrary to the Faith and wouldn't do so. Then came the two synods on the family in 2014 and 2015, which heightened my anxiety even further, and then finally Amoris Laetitia in 2016. It played out like a nightmare: I had been tempted to doubt the faith because of fears of what Francis would do, but I kept telling myself that Christ's promises could not fail, that the See of Peter could not fall into error, and that while he might make "confusing" or "scandalous" comments off-handedly, he could not possibly use the magisterium to teach a doctrine contrary to the Catholic faith. And then he, well, did. I read all of the usual conservative Catholic attempts to reinterpret and domesticate what he said about communion for the divorced and remarried, and the tortured rationalizations for how he didn't really say that it wasn't intrinsically evil for a couple living in objective mortal sin to receive holy communion, but I found myself unconvinced and more disturbed than ever.

Then the

I've looked through the wiki and I didn't find any references to other Traditionalist (or at least Conservative Catholic) Forums, so, in this thread I wanted to ask y'all for links to other traditionalist forums, however active, and in whatever languages (preferably non-sedevacantist, or at least not exclusively sede, and if sede, plase specify), so that we have other places to go in case Reddit brings the hammer and sickle down on us, and also in case we want to introduce other people to Traditionalist discussions without having to introduce them to Reddit.

I'll start with the more popular ones that I know of. I don't think there will be many more to add in EN, FR & PT, but still, if you know others, in whatever languages, please comment.

English

• Fish Eaters
• Suscipe Domine
• St. Isidore Forum (There are links to sede stuff but other than that it's fine, due to being mostly focused on resources. But beware, the main posters there seem to be sedes)
• Musica Sacra Forum (Almost exclusively Sacred Music discussions, but still worth the visit)
• CathInfo (SSPX Resistance, I don't agree much with them but it's still possible to talk with them without falling on their errors^(, imho, also, it's easier to talk to them than with liberals))
• Catholic Answers Forum | Traditional Catholicism Category

French

• Le Forum Catholique
• La Cité Catholique

Portuguese

• Fórum Apologética Católica

I saw more and more debate in social media from the traditionalists and the mainstream. On liturgy, lgbt acceptance, ex ecclesiam nulla sallus, papal authority.. some even has started to denounce the pope. The Indonesian church has usually been very open but now some people seem to want it to move to somthing more traditional.

Also there is a growing number of these edgy teens/young adult which seems to be anti-sjw, makes memes, highly educated on church history and maybe a bit crusade-freak. What do you think of this?

And there is also the growing resentment to the charismatic movement still by the same traditionalists. Personally i dont enjoy charismatic liturgies because it is coopted by loud pop music... strangely some of these charismatic people are also traditionalists.

No mass belief system is a monolith, but every has major points of agreement -- I'm seeking something that would inform me as to the viewpoints of the typical, informed, Traditionalist Catholic.

I would certainly welcome a solid biblical commentary in addition to the Baltimore catechism, for what it is worth. Plan on doing a deep dive on Douay-Rheims at some point, and would be grateful for guidance.

TLDR for non-Catholics:

• Until the late 1960s, the global Catholic Church had all its rituals conducted in Latin, regardless of the local languages surrounding an individual church building.
• In the late 60s, the Church reformed its rituals, simplifying them dramatically, and allowing them to be translated into local languages.
• These reforms didn't go down well with a small but vocal segment of the church, including a growing number of Millennial and younger Catholics who, despite growing up in the post-reform Church, found the post-reform ritual to be devoid of history and solemnity; these groups were allowed to continue using the older ritual forms.
• Chicago has several churches which are well-known, one internationally, for offering the older forms of Catholic ritual. The most outstanding is St. John Cantius Church.
• Within the traditionalist faction, there were many vocal critics of the actions of Pope Francis, whose criticism extended into questioning the legitimacy of the entire post-reform Church.
• As a result, claiming the necessity of protecting unity within the Church, Pope Francis several months ago issued an edict that severely limited the occasions when Catholics can use the older rituals.
• Today, Cardinal Cupich released his interpretation of Pope Francis' edict, which basically doubles down on every stricture.

For those wanting more detail, the text of Cupich's announcement is here; news articles about it are here, here, and here.

Reddit heavily skews irreligious, but about a third of Chicago has a connection to the Catholic Church, even if not regularly practicing. Also, while it's tempting to collapse this down to the same left wing—right wing fighting that goes on in the secular world, that's only true in part; this is a good article about the variety of personalities that are drawn to the old church rituals. Furthermore, this may be relevant even to those without any connection to Catholicism. Ever

Here is a list of all (as far as I know) confirmed subideologies for anyone else that’s curious, feel free to let me know if I either made a mistake or missed a subideology in the comments below:

COMMUNISM:

Mao Zedong Thought

Maoism (Yes, these are two seperate subideologies)

Neocommunism

Bolshevism

Leninism

Islamic Marxism

Stalinism

Stratocratic Communism

Amazonism

Left Communism

Arab Communism

SOCIALISM:

Socialism

Pan-Africanism

Syndicalism

Anarcho-Communism

Agrarian Socialism

Utopian Socialism

Ba’athism

Ultravisionary Socialism

Revolutionary Front

Christian Socialism

Left-Wing Nationalism

Guevarism

Nasserism

African Socialism

SOCIAL DEMOCRACY:

Social Democracy

Labor Zionism

Left-Wing Populism

Democratic Socialism

Social Radicalism

Progressive Democracy

Popular Front

LIBERAL DEMOCRACY:

Liberal Democracy

Market Liberalism

Neoliberalism

National Liberalism

Liberal Radicalism

Social Liberalism

CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRACY:

Conservative Democracy

Christian Democracy

Paternalistic Conservatism

Liberal Conservatism

Guided Democracy

Populist Conservatism

Islamic Democracy

AUTHORITARIAN DEMOCRACY:

Authoritarian Democracy

Social Nationalism

Neoconservatism

Dominant-Party Democracy

Oligarchy

Controlled Democracy

Right-Wing Populism

Semi-Constitutional Monarchy

Stratocracy

Kemalism

National Conservatism

Provisional Government

Peronism

Revisionist Zionism

DESPOTISM:

Aristocratic Conservatism

Absolute Monarchism

Military Junta

Bandit State

Corporatocracy

Traditionalist Monarchism

Personalist Dictatorship

Warlordism

Theocracy

Civilian Dictatorship

Colonial Government

Military Anarchism

Interim Government

Partisan Movement

Peronism (Again)

FASCISM:

Fascism

Corporatism

Reformed National Socialism

Revolutionary Nationalism

Integralism

Fascist Populism

Sansepolcrismo

Fascist Mysticism

Corporate Statism

Peronism (last time i promise)

NATIONAL SOCIALISM:

National Socialism

Idiosyncratic Nazism

Stratocratic Nazism

Clerical Fascism

Technocratic Nazism

National Stratocracy

Ordosocialism

ULTRANATIONALISM:

Ultramilitarism

Fundamentalism

ESOTERIC NAZISM:

Esoteric Nazism

Burgundian System

Imperial Cult

Ethno-Spartanism

Agrarian Spartanism

UNKNOWN:

National Catholicism

After 4 years of a disasterous Centre-right Goverment and a weak covid response , voters are back in the polling stations , looking for a new fresh start. But at threat is not only the health of the citizens , but the future existence of the country , as even after 10 years , many fear that the USA will acquire the country through war , and thus the far right still has a good momentum between USA haters and Anti-western voters! The 51 seats of the country are waiting for new representants !

Some more Introduction :
NLP- The big party on the right looking to still have some representation even after 4 years of a tragic goverment togheter with Citizens of Liberty party . Its objectives are for christian democratic and Anglo-Spanish representation , with clear Pro Catholic ideals and economically Ordoliberal objectives. They still have hopes to win over the Democratic Party , but polls say otherwise.

DP- The big leftist party , with progressivist tendicies , is looking to offer the change that many people are desperate for , and polls put them at around 28-30% . With a new elected leader , the party has driven their popularity up , with the best chances of winning and forming a goverment with the Green party and Citizens of Liberty !

Maverick - The Spanish national conservatives that represent socially right wing ideals but economically left leaning ones , are the driver of the third place with around 15.5% in polls. The party drives popularity in low class and rural regions , where more uneducated voters see them as a viable option . They propose for less economic restrictions in covid and are known for lots of traditionalist ralies!

Citizens of Liberty - This Libertarian party is on the 4th place with 10% in polling. They represent ideals of personal and economic freedom , and desire to establish more trading with NAFTA and USA , in contrast to most citizens. They also campaigned on almost no restrictions , which has driven up the virus cases in the country !

Green party - The viable centrist option for many young voters and ecologist , has a plan to distinguish itself from the traditional left wing party and plans to unite both moderate conservatives and social democrats under a pro ecologist and big tent platform . they poll at around 9%
Republican Intrest - The most left wing party runs on many socialist and anti-monarchist ideals , running to have an end to the Royal Families rule of almost 110 years! With the drive for anti-cap

Someone (can't remember who) made a comment in this sub off-handedly a year or so ago about how traditionalism reminded them of an online book club or fandom. I've kept thinking about that remark occasionally ever since, because it seems to me to encapsulate my own experience as a traditionalist so perfectly, and I wonder if others can relate.

When I became a Catholic at 23, I'd already been interested in Catholicism from an aesthetic standpoint (loved the Gothic vibe, the Latin, Gregorian chants, statues, kitcshy 19th century religious art, etc.) since I was 15, and interested in the more general Gothic / medieval aesthetic from way before then, almost as long as I can remember. That taste for medievalism was a lot of why I was so into LOTR, Chronicles of Narnia, King Arthur, and so on growing up. By the time I was 23, Catholicism was almost sort of like a fictional universe that I got into the same way a Star Wars nerd (which I also happen to be) is interested in that universe: I didn't take it as real, but it was a compelling mythology that I enjoyed reading and thinking about.

Once I became convinced that Catholicism was true, it was almost like the experience a SW fan would have if they stepped through a wardrobe door and suddenly found themselves in the Jedi temple on Coruscant. It was mind-blowing to see this universe that I'd thought was fictional suddenly come to life around me, and almost immediately I started praying four or five saints' novenas a day, constantly praying to the Sacred and Immaculate hearts, praying the rosary daily, and so on. Going to Mass was an almost unearthly experience, as was connecting with other trads online. It was like realizing I could transition into the SW universe at will and starting to learn to use the Force. I was absolutely obsessed, and when you add up the amount of time that I spent on my religious exercises with the time I spent reading right-wing, Catholic-sympathetic culture war garbage like Rod Dreher and Taylor Marshall and the time I spent just thinking about the religion, I was easily spending four or more hours a day on Catholicism, like a Halo addict. And I kept that intensity up for almost two years before starting to flag.

When I try to get back into my psychology at the time and understand what I was thinking, it's somewhat challenging because I already knew literally all of the intellectual reasons why I reject Catholicism. In fact, most of them were reasons that I wasn't already Catholic *

For a while I had delved into Traditional Catholicism, and I figured out that Traditionalists oppose freedom of religion and speech.

However, I also noticed that they appear to be bothered by the fact that non-Catholics have freedom of belief. An example of this is the YouTube channel called vaticancatholic.com. They dislike an Eastern Orthodox YouTuber called Jay Dyer for influencing many people. This is just one example of what I'm talking about.

I've made a post in the past about my interest in possibly pursuing Anglican Christianity. I have been both members in both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. I was devout and in love with both Churches in my faith, but my issues with being gay and repressing more and more who I was and what I knew I couldn't control caught up to me, and the euphoria of traditionalist Christianity began to finally fade away, and eventually called it quits. My Orthodox Priest to the best of his ability was "sensitive" to his approach in how to help me, but essentially was him telling me my perceived desire for same sex love was "misguided" and of course, could get what I needed from "real male friendships" (whatever that means). For a while during the pandemic I explored previous faith systems I had experience with such as Buddhism, but keep feeling an interest in looking into Anglicanism/Episcopal Church in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, from seeing things in my day to day life such as stepping on a pamphlet in a parking lot saying "I am the way the truth and the life" and seeing the occasional "The Episcopal Church welcomes you" bumper car sticker, all of which can be mere coincidences, but gets me contemplating non the less. There's a lot about the Anglican Communion I've began to learn to respect and appreciate, but there's so much to reconcile in regards to my understanding, such as how to appreciate and affirm Protestant theology with Catholic theology, be more comfortable with female clergy, and, what I am looking for the most, affirming my homosexuality with Christianity. What I love most about Anglicanism though, is it's ability to recognize and affirm the sanctity in other historic Christian Churches, stays faithful to Christian tradition and history with more freedom to grow in faith, doctrine and experience, it's desire to question it's own understanding of things sometimes, as well as the nice benefit of having an actual authentic American Church with American-English roots.

From my recent research and understanding, condemning homosexuality as sinful, outside a few Bible verses that can't fully be applied to the concept and power of committed same sex partnerships is not as straight forward as traditionalists like to make it sound, and the Episcopal Church as well as other Anglican provinces went through lengthy research and dialogue to come to where they are now (Which I am grateful for and have learnt much from.) But, as wanting to remain faithful to

Do your worst!

I’ve been working on my own projects so I’m kind out of the loop, what’s happening?

For context I'm a Refuse Driver (Garbage man) & today I was on food waste. After I'd tipped I was checking the wagon for any defects when I spotted a lone pea balanced on the lifts.

I said "hey look, an escaPEA"

No one near me but it didn't half make me laugh for a good hour or so!

Edit: I can't believe how much this has blown up. Thank you everyone I've had a blast reading through the replies 😂

It really does, I swear!

A while back I fell into Traditional Catholicism, and the fear of Hell and of doomsday took over my mind, unfortunately. Long story so I'll cut it really short.

Online, I encountered so many delusional Traditional Catholics who all believe that Christ will return within a year or two. Furthermore, there's thousands of these scattered Traditionalist sects worldwide claiming to be the true Catholic Church.

Do they really believe that if a just and loving god exists, he will only save a few people from all of humanity? Personally, this is why I've always rejected Christ and his "loving" Catholic cult; it breeds a chosen-people mentality. 🤮

However, by remembering about how evolution is true and how the beginning part of the Bible is obviously false, I realized that the ending of the Bible [Book of Revelation] is also false.

Who else here hates apocalyptic beliefs?

So I guess this essay has been a long time coming, I've posted elements of its content around this sub before, and someone over in r/OpenChristian asked me to describe my journey to being affirming, and so it all just came out in one long post. I know this sub is a mix of both current and ex-Catholics, and so wherever you're at in relation to the Church, I hope this helps you in some way, or you at least find it interesting to see how I came to conclude that the Church's anti-gay teaching is not of God. (Original thread here for context).

TW: Contains description of anti-gay arguments.

Sure. It's been a journey.

So I was initially aware of the Scriptural exegesis arguments that are being discussed in this thread (such as those articulated by Matthew Vines and Justin Lee) and they convinced me that the Bible alone can't be used to justify anti-gay theology (which is why, to the point of the OP, I am actually a big proponent of exegetical arguments. Not everyone's just a homophobe, some people do just need to be convinced biblically. But I digress).

But the extra hurdle for me was that I'm Catholic. Simply put, the Catholic Magisterium ("teaching authority", hierarchy in Rome), claims to be able to to definitely settle questions of "faith and morals". Catholicism believes such an authority is the solution to the kind of infighting that exists in the Protestant word, and is a gift from Jesus to help us to know the truth. A common saying is that "an infallible book needs an infallible interpreter". All of those arguments were persuasive to me, as there is indeed a lot of infighting in the Protestant world, and Catholic apologetics makes a good case that such confusion and disarray is not of God. So I believed this idea that we have to believe everything the hierarchy says, otherwise we're not really Catholic, so the thinking goes.

Then I got into Church history. It's ironic, because there's a saying in Catholic apologetics that "to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant", because many Early Church Fathers wrote about distinctly Catholic doctrines such as the Eucharist and Mary. Many Protestants who look into it are amazed to find evidence of such belief so early in Church history, and many then become Catholic.

But I discovered a new twist on th

They’re on standbi

Attributes: A

Metatype: C

Magic: D

Skills: B

Resources: E

Chummer file and PDF

Discord ID: Lucky#4978

Backstory:

Shannon comes from a long line of Irish nationalists. The O'Reillys - a family of hard-line traditionalists who stuck with Catholicism despite being affected by the UGE - welcomed the unification of Ireland and later the formation of Tír na nÓg, believing that finally, their people were united. How ironic is it, then, that following the 2049 outlawing of the Roman Catholic Church, they found themselves fleeing their home in fear of persecution?

Shannon herself was already born in Seattle, UCAS, as the fifth child of a blue-collar Irish (Tírish?) immigrant family, and mind you, later they got a sixth. The family has never been in what most consider abject poverty, but they always have been sort of flirting with the line; Shannon's parents were SINless in the UCAS, though they managed to apply some of their children for a SIN. Two parents working illegally in the industrial borough of Black Diamond will struggle to support such a big family no matter what, even if gramps gets a job too, so Shannon got used to hand-me-down clothing and delicious soy with a side of more soy for dinner. On the bright side, her parents knew not to skimp out on the really important things, and they had Shannon take courses in Thai boxing. When you are a young woman living in 2079 Seattle, you want to know some form of self-defense...

Things got a little better as the kids started to grow up and found their own lines of work; having a SIN really helped. In fact, by the time Shannon finished high school, the family could afford to let her go to college (she still had to get a side job of delivering food, of course). For her part, she returned this favor by making the incredibly impractical choice of studying history.

But good news! She never got to finish her studies. She was, in fact, working on her thesis when lightning struck: her parents lost their jobs at the industrial complex, and Shannon knew they wouldn't be able to support her anymore. What do you do when you are young, poor, and have no applicable skills apart from knowledge of European history? You can always sell yourself to a megacorp or worse, but is that really what her ancestors, who - according to family legend - fought the British during the Troubles, would do...?

That was when Patrick, one of Shannon's several br

I am exploring issues of ethnonationalism and eurocentricism among Traditionalist Catholics.

Have any of you ever experiences hostility or outright criticism from traditionally minded Latin Catholics due to being Eastern rite?

It is an issue I have come across in the odd (very rare) online comment in passing, but haven’t seen the issue addressed directly.

I am asking this in the spirit of academic inquiry. So can people hold off on being sensitive if they regard this as finger-pointing of any kind.

(In case it makes any difference to how this question is perceived: I am Latin rite myself)

I had delved into Traditional Catholicism for a few months, and I was almost immediately disillusioned by it. These people are very antiscience; I was very astounded, actually. Not only are most Traditional Catholics creationists, many of them are also geo-centrists, flat-earthers, etc.

For those of you who don't know, Traditional Catholics believe in a whole range of nonsense.

Traditionalists' religious beliefs are their foundational beliefs, and whatever science they believe in and accept has to be compatible with their religious beliefs. For intellectually-minded people who accept science, this is the other way around.

Honestly, I wonder how stupid our religion- and pseudoscience-obsessed culture looks like compared to Asian cultures which greatly favor and support science.

Overall, most Traditionalists are very anti-intellectual, but what can you expect from people who believe that a "just" and "loving" god will condemn every non-Catholic to Hell for simply having followed the religion taught to them by their parents.

Pilot on me!!

In my own opinion, there is really no difference between traditionalist Catholicism and Islam when it comes to women. Islam may be just a bit more extreme.

Traditionalist Catholicism is so hung up on having the female body covered. If the female body is so abhorrent and filthy, then why did God create the female body as the way it looks? It doesn't make any sense.