MD–PhD Puns

Person: so I heard you’re going for a doctorate?

Me: yep sure am, I love going more in debt.

Person: So when do you have to do your residency.

Me: no that’s for a medical doctor. I’m going for my PhD. It’s a doctor of philosophy so to speak.

Person: Well tell me something deep an insightful then. (They no shit said that)

Me (who’s getting a PhD in business management): Buy low, sell high. What do you want from me dude.

(This is no shit a conversation I had with someone. I was a little more polite though in my responses and explained it but basically what I was thinking” )

There have been multiple conversations like that this but this one was my favorite. Anyone else?

Hello, there.

I'm currently considering applying for an MD/PhD in the upcoming cycle. I've always liked research and have found it interesting, but recently working in a community clinic has been very eye-opening and I've found that I enjoyed the patient interactions. In the future, I was thinking of going into academia and doing research geared towards helping underserved patient populations.

However, my parents are pretty old, and we're not the most well-off either. I'm beginning to feel guilty and overwhelmed with how much easier I could make life better for them if I just chose to do a straight MD and begin earning money right away. I feel self-loathing because I know I'd hate not being able to do focused research or PhD-level graduate work, but also... money is money. My parents are immigrants, and they have no relatives in the US to help them. They're also trapped here financially and cannot go back to our home country either. I wish I could become super rich off of academia so I could let them quit the jobs that are slowly becoming too much for them at their age (especially my mother), but we all know academics don't make much.

I don't know where this is going. I'm just bitter at being broke I guess lol. Thanks for reading this rant.

Edit: Thank you so much for all of the supportive messages. I'll definitely try talking with my parents to hear their thoughts directly. Thank you again for all of the encouragement, I feel a lot better about pursuing this path now. :)

I'm no stranger to the rigors of a PhD program, I used to be in one for Electrical Engineering (more like Computational/Applied Physics, really) for 3 years, was a year away from graduating, but didn't because my supervisor is a credit-stealing narrow-minded jackass.

I'm considering switching fields to Biomedical Engineering, I've always been interested in prostheses and I think my background in Physics would come in handy for that (and I have some experience with computer vision, and my BSc thesis was on mechanics). But I also feel like having a clinical background (and license) would be advantageous to my research.

The the people in the field, what are your thoughts on these dual programs?

On my end, it's kinda fishy that all MD-PhD programs in my country are targeted towards foreigners (e.g., a top university where I live in the middle east offers it, but if you go to the "Tuition and Scholarships" page, all the info are for US and Canadian citizens. all universities that offer it have no info written in the local language, etc.), but maybe that's just the quirk here.

edit: not gonna respond to the questions about my previous phd. she's a fuckhead and that's that. the story is in my other account: i talked to everyone in the proverbial food chain, including the university rector, and lawyers were involved. that phd is officially dead.

My story's a long one but the rundown is that I worked my ass off after undergrad, had some life-changing experiences, and was still able to get in without retaking a 507 MCAT.

Just wanted to share the miraculous news with you all and reinforce that seemingly unlikely goals are still totally possible to accomplish :)

MD/PhD finances = 30k per year stipend: 30k * 8 years = 240k when starting residency. You make ~50k during residency after taxes. Lets say you do EM = 3 years of residency. 240k + 50K * 3 years = 390k

MD Finances = -200k in tuition when starting residency. 50K salary for EM = 3 years residency + 5% interest on your loans yearly (((-200k*1.05 - 50k)*1.05 - 50k)*1.05 - 50k) = -74k

ED physician salary 300k. After taxes 180k. 4 years of work due to the PhDs time. 180k*4 years - 74k = 646k

IM physcian Salary 240K. After taxes 148k. 148k * 4 years - 74k = 518k

EM difference 646k - 390k = 256k

IM different 518k - 390k = 128k.

This difference will be smaller if you do a fellowship after residency.

Let me know what you think or if anything is off with my calculations. I know this is very path-dependent but it's a fun thought experiment.

I’m currently a junior and I’m going between MD and MD/PhD. I know a lot of the differences and pros and cons but I am curious to hear when you guys decided it was the move.

I’m trying to see if summer research this year will help me decide because I’ve been very ambivalent about what decision to make

Hi all. Wanted some feedback on if I would be a reasonable candidate for any accredited MD/PhD Program. I am ORM.

cGPA 3.57, sGPA 3.68. Biochemistry and graduated in 2019.

MCAT of 511 (127/124/132/128) with another test date on April 9th 2022.

Undergrad research: about 1000 hours and 1 third author publication.

Post-bacc research: 4,000 hours with 3 publications: 1 third author, 1 second author in cell reports, and 1 co-first in a protocol review.

About 200 hours of shadowing.

About 200 hours of non-clinical volunteering.

Only about 15 hours of clinical volunteering, which I’m working on.

I switched full times jobs to ED scribing in October (full time, will have about 3000 hours by matriculation) because I basically had no clinical experience and I wanted to see what it was like. I love it here, but I really love science and research and would like for it to be a significant portion of my career.

I didn’t get accepted into any MD programs during the 2020-2021 cycle, but I had no publications out yet and way less volunteering hours. My essays were also pretty garbage.

I have an advisor on the ADCOM at UPenn, and my PI is in the immunology program at Harvard, and they both think I would need to take a significant load of classes to boost my GPA to be a qualified candidate. Because I don’t really have any money to pay for more classes, I was thinking just applying MD/DO this upcoming cycle and trying to transfer into a PhD program after my first year. Any thoughts are appreciated. Cheers!

I'm about 2 semesters from graduation (neuroscience). Looking into jobs and realizing MD is still something I think about. Originally thought being a PI was just as satisfying but I'm really not enjoying writing this much (grants, reviews, publications) and thought it was something I could learn to enjoy. I can see myself in an industry position but science policy is really the only other area I think I'd enjoy and I'm worried it's a lot of writing as well.

Main hesitation is that my undergrad was in psych over 10 years ago, so I have no chem prerequisites. I know there's some universities without course requirements. And some MD 3 year accelerated programs.

Main attraction to MD is being more patient facing, active physical job (I'm just doing data analysis on a PC most days), always interested in neurology case studies. I'm thinking of finding a doctor to shadow after the holidays.

Anyone went this route? Any advice on prerequisite issue? Am I just having a midlife crisis?

Edit: thanks for the responses. I know it would be a lot of work, and no, I don't enjoy being a degree collector. While I can get well paying jobs as a PhD in industry, I've yet to find something that I know I will enjoy as a long term career. Though selling my soul to consulting and making money to buy a house is always a consideration. I took 5+ years off between undergrad and grad school, still working in research labs, so a science career is something I've always enjoyed - not just avoiding reality with school. I would first shadow an MD before making any decision. I'm just weighing options right now, seeing if someone has advice of something I'm not aware of. It sounds like the comments suggest there's a huge wall to climb over, but the reward could be worth it - should I not find something with a PhD in the patient setting that I enjoy.

Generally, how long is the wait between the two?

For anyone who has applied to both MD/PhD and MD-only programs, did you get your LOR writers to write two versions, commenting on traits specific to a physician-scientist or to a physician? I feel like that would be the better way to go but it's also more work on my letter writers. Any thoughts appreciated!

Edit: DO, DPM, DDS real doctors as well

I spent a long time contemplating what to write and how to phrase it. I wrote this with a lot of emotion but also tried to include hard evidence to call out what every institution is guilty of.

While I did not apply here because they don’t fit my research interests, I have been looking into the admissions statistics of schools MD-PhD programs. Schools like Duke. Earlier this year I came across their 2020 MSTP data. As I scrolled through the data I was shocked by how much transparency there was at this institution. My pleasant shock turned into horror when I looked at the application —> interview —> offer —> matriculation data. My heart sank when I saw that the percentage of URM applicants was not only incredibly small but that ZERO URMs matriculated.

When I checked on this data today, I was not able to find the same webpage on Google. I scrolled through my bookmarks to find the link I saved months prior and when I clicked on it, I was met with a “404 Page Not Found” message. I had to use an archive website to find the data once more. It never ceases to amaze me to what length institutions like this go to not only prevent URM students from reaching their programs (via systemic racism, unrealistic expectations, etc.) but also the length to which they will cover the evidence of such biases. There is no reason why an institution like Duke should matriculate zero URMs into their MSTP.

I figure that many of you will play devil’s advocate and/or not have experienced the hell that is being a URM pre-med/MD-PhD applicant. I can’t blame you. This process trains us to consider every side of the picture. Yet if we are not careful, we may overlook critical details and write it off as “coincidence” - which one can argue is part of the goal (there is an article related to this somewhere).

1. “But it’s December. So of course they’ll take down their old data to make way for the new” - while this makes sense logically it misses the point that the MD program’s data is still posted on their page.

2. “Well, they admitted URMs and they chose not to attend so that’s not their fault” - Yes, but it’s more complex than that. First, let’s do some math. Duke’s MSTP received 459 applications. Of that, 15% were URM. This means that about 68 applicants were URM (which is wild in and of itself). Of that, 65 applicants were invited to interview. 14% of them were URM —> so about 9 applicants. The data from here gets a bit murky and to be honest this data is presented in

Hi everybody,

I was just wondering if anybody had kids during their MD/PhD years of training. Having a family is really important to me and I understand that it will be hard no matter what (MD, PhD, MD/PhD). Research is very important to me but I don’t think I would pick it over having a family. I have heard that having kids during Med school/residency is obviously tough but doable. I just didn’t know if it would feasible. For a little more information my S/O will be in an MD/PhD program as well. Thanks in advance!!

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What do you think of it

Hi everyone, I'm a non-traditional applicant interested in applying to MD/PhD programs this year and would appreciate any advice and feedback you can offer. I've been working full-time as a researcher since 2019 after two years of undergrad research. I think I have research exposure covered, but I'm concerned about my community/clinical service experience and GPA. I'm unsure whether getting a master's would help substantially.

[Optional reading for context behind previous applications] I've been interested in MD/PhD since undergrad, but was scared of the 8+ year commitment and believed I wasn't good enough anyway. As alluded to in the title, I applied to MD-only programs two years in a row without success, one wait-list each year). The first time around, I was somewhat pressured to apply (my family thought that a gap year, let alone the two I intended, was a huge waste of time). After the second cycle, I held off on applying again and did some soul-searching. I realized that I was not putting my most authentic self into those applications and interviews -- the self that comes alive when discussing project ideas and dances for joy when an experiment works better than expected. I figured that pursuing an MD/PhD and being my full self is worth taking the path of higher resistance.

---

Okay, now for the stats.

Demographic info: female, Southeast Asian, US citizen

Undergraduate school: Georgia Institute of Technology

Major: Biochemistry

GPA: 3.69 (sGPA 3.57), with an upward trend. Will be taking a few grad-level courses (part of my employee benefits).

MCAT: 517 (129/131/129/128), taken in summer 2020. Had a 510, now expired, during my first cycle.

Undergrad research: ~1200 hours over four semesters and one summer working full time in a biochemistry/bioengineering lab. Awarded a scholarship for a (mostly) independent project and presented work at two symposiums at my school and one conference.

Leadership: President of student ACS chapter, TA for freshman chemistry, training other undergrad researchers

Post-bac research: ~5700 hours (nearly 3 years FT) by time of application. Currently working in a cancer immunology lab at a university/medical center and was given my own project about six months ago.

Papers: 1 publication (late 2021), 1 pending review, 1 almost ready for submission (all as co-author)

Clinical volunteering: ~50 hours at a COVID vaccine clinic in early 2021

Non-clinical volunteering: ~100 hours (mostly STEM outreach)

Other cl

i graduated in may with a bachelors in biology & psychology with neuroscience and theology minors. i’m currently doing a year of service at a nonprofit that does outreach, connection to care, & street medicine to the homeless. i love it here — but my intentions were never to go to medical school. i love research. asking questions and searching for answers. but i’ve been thinking that i really do want to be able to work with clinical patients down the line, and i think an md/phd would open more doors for that. i haven’t taken the mcat but i guess i would be willing to try it out. i worked in a rodent neuroscience lab in undergrad and i’m hoping to continue research in behavioral neuroscience/ neuropsychopharmacology and being in a translational lab would be cool

Hi! I just decided today to try to apply for MD/PhD programs in the upcoming cycle. Im currently doing a combined Masters program in Neuroscience after finishing my BS. I wanted to know if my school list (below) is okay based on my stats:

Race: Asian

Undergraduate School: Johns Hopkins University

Major: Neuroscience

GPA: 4.00

MCAT: 519 (131/125/132/131) (do you think CARS will keep me out)

Clinical volunteering: 250 hours (Child life, volunteering at aphasia center, and front desk rep)

Nonclinical volunteering: 1000 ish hours

Leadership: President of Neuroscience Honor Society, President of a STEM education organization, VP of a college app volunteer org, Associate editor of a medical journal, Executive editor of a public health journal, public health conference co-director

Research (the big boi): 4000 projected hours in the one lab I have been a part of since freshman year. Been involved with 7 projects, 1 middle author pub was accepted with revisions to PNAS, 1 second author pub in prep (idk if will be published by May) which will be submitted to a high-impact journal, and 2 other manuscripts in prep with my name on them. I also received 13K total in funding from national and university organizations. My PI is well-known in his field and he really likes me and thinks I am talented in research. I'm also doing a combined Master's degree in Neuroscience at his lab too.

LORs: 1 from my PI which I hope will be really good given his accomplishments and that he likes me, and I think the other ones will be good as well. I think this will be a strong part of my app.

School list:

Stanford, UCLA, UCSF, Yale, Northwestern, UChicago, University of Kansas Medical Center, JHU, UMD, Harvard-MIT, Tufts, University of Massachusetts, University of Michigan, Mayo, WashU, Albert Einstein, Columbia, Icahn, NYU, Cornell, University of Rochester, Duke, UPenn, University of Pittsburgh, Vanderbilt

Notes: Do you think my CARS score will keep me out? What else can I do to improve my app? Im willing to take any feedback and learn and be a better applicant. Thank you so much for reading all of this!

So Jan Siebenga, MD, PhD, published this blog about why the COVID vaccines are unsafe: https://www.jansiebenga.com/blog/the-covid-vaccine-can-make-you-very-sick-and-now-we-know-why

It's fair to say that the blog article is criticizing the mRNA vaccines because in the last paragraph he writes:

There is mounting evidence that the new type of mRNA vaccine can have serious side effects and may even cause death.

This particular paragraph warns of some serious consequences:

Our cells produce spike protein variants that have lost the important membrane anchor, resulting in secreted soluble spike protein variants which end up in our blood circulation. Soluble spike protein has been described to cause adverse effects, e.g., a strong inflammatory response on endothelial cells. Moreover, nearly all severe cases of SARS-CoV-2 infections (COVID-19) suffer from life-threatening thromboembolic events due to the many spike surface protein in the bloodstream. Even pseudoviruses with spike protein on the surface cause strong inflammatory reactions in tissues and endothelial cells, indicating the danger of this protein. When this spike protein ends up in our circulation, such thromboses may occur in any site of the human body where endothelial cells express ACE-2. When the immune system starts to produce antibodies against the spike protein, the endothelial cells will not only bind the soluble spike protein variants but would also be attacked with the newly formed antibodies. This will give rise to strong inflammatory reactions. (Kowarz, Krutzke, & Reis, 2021)

Here is the cited paper: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1

Here is the last paragraph in the "Discussion" section:

Based on our findings, we strongly suggest that the Spike open reading frames – wildtype or codon-optimized - in vector-based vaccines has to be re-optimized to avoid unintended splice reactions and to increase the safety of these pharmaceutical products. Vice versa, all mRNA-based vaccines should represent safe products, because the delivered mRNA will only be translated into surface antigen, without having any possibility to participate in nuclear splice events.

Did you catch that? These side effects apply to vector-based vaccines, not mRNA vaccines. In fact, the paper says that mRNA vaccines should be safe

Hi there, I have some questions about job titles and degrees in the English language. It's mainly for my email signature and resume (so it's not a big deal haha), but for my PhD research I work with a lot of international colleagues (USA, UK, Australia) so I would prefer to get it right.

I am a physician in the Netherlands, which means I did 6 years of medical school: 3 years Bachelor, 3 years Master (which includes 2 years of clerkships/rotations). We officially get awarded the MSc title, but most people use MD in English since it separates physicians from other masters of science. Is this correct?

After med school, I have worked for 2 years as a junior physician (foundation doctor / house officer / intern / resident not in training?). Almost every physician here does this to gain experience before applying to a specialty training. You can do it in almost any specialty, I chose surgery (1 year) and orthopedics (1 year) because I want to become an orthopedic surgeon, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the specialty you want to match in (although it helps for your resume and for networking). E.g., other people choose EM, IM, Peds, neurology, etc. Does this job have an equivalent in the USA or other countries? What would you call this function in your country?

Currently I am getting a PhD in orthopedic surgery, so I'm doing research full-time for ~3 years. In my country, it's quite normal for physicians to attain a PhD before specialty training, since the competition is huge and there are fewer residency spots than people who want them. Medical PhD programs can take 2-5 years depending on the field and if you have to run an entire clinical trial or if you start off with data that's already there. In Dutch, my job title is "arts-onderzoeker", which translates to "physician-researcher" or "physician-scientist", and it's basically when a physician (MD) does a PhD program. Does this job title have an actual English equivalent, if so: what would you call it? People who have finished this process, call themselves MD, PhD (and will usually have put in 8-11 years to attain both titles).

Curious about your opinions, thanks in advance! Any questions are also welcome of course.

TL;DR:
- Is 6 years of med school in The Netherlands equivalent to MD title?
- Is 6 years of med school + 2-5 years PhD program equivalent to MD, PhD title?
- What do you call working as a junior physician that's not in specialty training yet (e.g. foundation doctor, hous

Hello Friends,

I’m a reapplicant from 2017 cycle for MD/PhD program, my previous stat:

Undergrad cGPA: 3.79 Undergrad sGPA: 3.94 Graduated advanced honors MCAT:494 ( I know it’s shitty, went through difficult time prior to test date, due to my fathers was deportation) Research:1500hrs Volunteering: 300hrs Shadowing: 500hrs Abstracts for conferences: 2 Publications:0

Current stat: Major: Biochemistry Undergrad cGPA: 3.79 Undergrad sGPA: 3.94 Master degree: Biomedical science Master GPA: 3.98 MCAT: retaking 4/29/2022 Undergrad Research:1500hrs Masters Research:750hrs Post-master clinical research employment: 3 years Volunteering: 750 hrs Shadowing: 1000hrs Abstract for conferences: 4 Accepted Publications: 2 LOR: 6

I’m currently working in a med/oncology lab under a physician scientist. I’m wondering if the 5year gap will affect my application? How can I improve for this cycle? What MCAT score should I target?Any advice/criticism/ encouragement is welcomed :)

I'm looking for MD/PhD programs where the PhD can be done in machine learning, artificial intelligence, computer science, etc. Does anyone know of any? Can anyone speak to the reputation?

Someone posted something similar in the premed subreddit [actually really helpful], and I had to wonder what it is for the MD/PhD programs out there.

Since last year, I have worked under a professor where I have contributed to multiple manuscripts related to clinical subjects. I currently have two publications and would definitely be able to have multiple by the time I apply.

But here is my concern: The professor publishes very often to low impact journals which are open access. If I weee to interview at programs, would they value my publications as “research experience” as long as I demonstrate knowledge of the publications I contributed to?

I’m finishing my doctorate degree and I’m also single so I’m dating. I don’t like bringing up what I’m studying or my degree right away for two reasons: 1) I worry about scaring away men 2) I worry that men will only be interested in me because of this. Sometimes it seems like all they see is the educational piece but I’m a whole person outside of that and have lots of other interests outside of school and my degree.

Maybe it’s my own insecurities. Idk just taking a poll to see what others think about dating women with a doctorate degree.

Edit: Wow completely blown away by all the comments! Sounds like I have nothing to worry about. My concerns probably speak more to past experiences. Thanks all for the encouragement!

Has anyone decided to undertake an MD after their PhD? Or had been working in research for a while before deciding they wanted to work directly with patients? How did you come to the decision and what was it all like?

Title.

Seriously! Pass/Fail medical school grading is better than sliced bread. It limits competition among peers. It decreases the stress of school. You can dedicate more time to lab or life. Trust me. If I were to apply again, it would be one of the top few things I looked at in a school.

Hi! Wondering if there is any other Canadians in this sub who either applied/are planning to apply in Canada and some American schools? I’m wondering if anyone could give insight for the MD/PhD application process or programs for these schools?

US: Harvard-MIT Boston U

Canada: U of T UBC uAlberta McMaster

The Long SOM’s MSTP is helping host the South Regional APSA Convention They’ll have seminars that would interest potential applicants and opportunities for presenting posters! If any of you guys are interested in pursuing the physician scientist path, I think this would be a great convention to attend. I remember attending an APSA convention years ago and the people I met there were a major motivation for me to apply. I hope this helps!

Hi everyone!

I am currently in the process of applying for PREP programs for my gap year. However, I noticed most schools only intend for you to pursue a PhD after the program and not an MD/PhD. A school even mentioned saying only 1 spot is for MD/PhD and 9 are for PhD interested students. So, is there a bias when selecting students for their program? I know the NIH wrote specifically that PREP programs are for PhD AND MD/PhDs.

If anyone is currently in a PREP program and plans to pursue an MD/PhD I would greatly appreciate your input!

Thank you!

Hi! I should start off by saying that I'm in my first gap year and I've only recently decided that I want to pursue an MD/PhD, so I am pushing my application to the 2023-2024 cycle. I have competitive stats (4.0 in biology and 524 [132/128/132/132]), but I feel like my research experience is a bit meh. I plan on beefing it up in the next year, and I was wondering if I will be competitive enough to apply MD/PhD in 2023, particularly (although not only) to T20 schools.

• I have about ~1000 hrs in a molecular genetics fly lab, but I worked more as a technician just doing small experiments for grad students here and there. I was able to do 2 of my own projects, but neither of them produced significant results and I just feel like my experience is subpar compared to many of the people I know/on this sub. However, I was able to get 1 student symposium poster done from this lab and a few university awards. My PI will also be able to write me a strong letter, which will be nice!
• The summer after my sophomore year, I was able to do lab work abroad (~300-400 hrs) in protein research. While I didn't produce anything significant other than another poster at a student symposium, I'd say I was able to do much more "meaningful" work (not sure if that's the right word?).
• I was fortunate enough to receive a Fulbright research grant and I will be returning to the same lab abroad for 10 months. I'll have a projected ~1,600 hours of research, which will probably be very productive work. I don't know if I'll get a publication out of this, though.

I guess my biggest concern is the depth of my research. Any feedback is appreciated!

Other noteworthy information:

• ORM from mid-tier state school
• TX resident
• Working for university research office (although not actually doing research)
• 180 hours clinical volunteering
• 70 hours scribing
• Bio TA one semester
• Worked summer 2020 scheduling Covid tests for local county
• Projected 100-200 hours non-clinical volunteering
• Led music rehearsals at university

Hi guys. Finishing up my MD(in Europe). I really want to do research, but I would like to have some patient contact too. So should I go for a PhD first, or do specialty training?

I’m about to graduate this semester and plan on taking a gap year to pursue a research fellowship for a year before hopefully starting an MD/PhD. I put my stats below. Also just a quick disclaimer, I haven’t taken the MCAT yet but I’ve gotten nearly the same score on every practice exam and want to get an idea of my odds If end up scoring where I’m at.

GPA: 3.85

sGPA: 3.76

MCAT (projected): 511 (129/126/128/128)

Research: 4 years part time during undergrad, two publications (one second author, one fourth author), two full summers in which one summer I was awarded my own funding from the NIH. The second summer I worked in another lab specific to my research interests while also working in the other lab I got the publications at.

I’m an ORM (white dude) but I received a Pell Grant , not sure if that effects anything.

Also I don’t necessarily have my heart set on getting into a T20, I’ll gladly go anywhere that’s decent.

DOI/PMID/ISBN: 10.1001/jama.2021.23487

URL

Thank you in advance!

I know you can do research with an MD degree but are you limited in anyway? Can MD/PhD graduates still focus on clinical work? Also, if you were to do an MD/PhD degree can you choose what to get your PhD in? for example a PhD in anthropology.

If I'm applying MD/PhD, does it hurt my chances to also apply MD only at the same school?

For example, does it look like I'm not 100% committed?