Atatürk made reforms on basically on everything, including religion. What if Atatürk just reform the economy, infrastructure, etc?
Hello fellow Turks!
I am after reading biography about Atatürk, and I am completely amazed of things he had done to Turkey, and how he changed the whole Ottoman society. I would never expect that one man can accomplish that many.
But to the point, during the reading I asked myself, How did people agree on that? I mean It happened so fast, and those werent minor changes, Giving vote to women, making transition from Arabic to latin alphabet, banning Fez, secularising the country and most importantly, removing the caliph. Shouldnt people be furious about it? I guess there was a little bit unrest, but nothing big, the autibiograph only mentions a Kurdish Rebellion. Was his fame as a Defender of Gallipoli that big and people didnt question any of his actions?, or did Ottoman Empire was more Europeish nation that people commonly think?
Greetings from Poland!
By this I don't mean Azeris or Turkmen or the other speakers of Turkic languages in the Soviet Union (which of course has its own complicated history of script reforms), but former Ottoman territories which, for some reason or another, weren't involved in the population exchanges of the early 20th century. Places like the Aegean Islands (controlled by Italy) or Cyprus—did the Turkish populations of such areas continue to write in Arabic script long after those in Turkey had switched to the Latin alphabet? (Similar question about the small Ottoman-Turkish diaspora in the US, etc.) And if so, how long did it take for reforms in Turkey to permeate these areas where Atatürk couldn't enforce any such changes?
A beheadscarfed friend was explaining why she supports AKP to me, and she cited a supposedly massive bodycount from Atatürk's abolition of the fez as one reason. To my knowledge, about five people were killed in Kastamonu for refusing to wear Western headgear, but she said it's more like five in every province of Turkey. I'd like to know the true brutality of this measure.
Unlike most believe , in my opinion , Democracies are the strongest government type in War time.
For example , 1921 Parliament of Turkey was the most democratic parliament we ever had. It was the most diverse politically , in the interwar era politics , and it had the greatest culture of consensus. It was also extremely powerful. All commanders , including Atatürk knew they would be hanged if they lost a battle they initiated. It's benefits were immense. Parliament commited so much resources , that a Dictator couldn't , and would lose seat immediately. Including , forced labor for those who owned carts(for supply) , smiths , seizure of %40 of all Mechanized vehicles, seizure of %40 of all clothing owned by businessmen , seizure of all weapons and ammunition , Seizure of %20 of all food owned , every family providing clothing for 1 soldier. All would be repaid after war, if it was won. (It got repaid)
After war , since it was time for radical reforms that had no support , Parliament was largely neutered , as Atatürk made the country a one party state.
However , dismantling the Nazism , has support from German populace. They got unemployed due to it , they suffered a civil war , saw the system crumble. It can be done democratically. And war can be a catalyst to it. It allows suppression of dissidents(Nazi hardliners in this scenario). It would be fun and plausible to see Nazis get suppressed like they did for decades "How dare you oppose the German State in war time , Traitor.”
Democracies also function well in war time since all agenda would be delayed to not hamper war effort. It would help soften the ideological clusterfuck of post-Nazi Germany.
The peace is the tricky part. I doubt German Parliament would allow any compromises. But , Russia isn't looking ready to compromise anyway, under almost all unifiers.
By which I mean the period of the Tanzimat reforms, where people were trying to reform and modernize the empire, etc? Do you regret that the Ottoman Empire collapsed or was it a good thing?
One thing that always struck me as weird is that it seems, from a foreign perspective, like Islamist/AKP-ish Turks are more pro-Ottoman, but among at least some Jews the late Ottoman period/ Tanzimat reforms etc are instead a symbol of people trying their hardest against all odds to coexist as a Muslim/Jewish/Christian Ottoman community together, trying their best to overcome all the problems that they inherited from the previous generations: the sectarianism, the culture of corruption, the debt to Western countries, the constant sabotage by Great Powers... at least the one grandfather I have who loves to talk about this always blamed the Great Powers and Russia for destroying what could have been something not only functional but even maybe great -- not in an Islamist way, but in a diverse Ottoman osmanli-lik (hope I spelled that right) identity way.
But I'm not Turkish so my historical viewpoint is not centered on Ottoman/Turkish history, and there's def things I don't know. So I'm very curious for how Turks think of that time, and if you know, what your grandparents etc said of the idea they had of that time?
For context (in case anyone doesn’t know who he is/was), he was the founder and the first president of the Republic of Turkey.
No doubt, Ataturk has done good things, he saved his country from 6 nations that sought to carve it up and destroy it, managed to turn a crumbling empire into a functioning and stable country (modernism be damned though), maintained territorial and sovereign legitimacy for Turkey. Even many self-proclaimed Islamists, like myself, have to praise him for some of the things he's done.
But I feel like this praise for him is too much, and that criticism of him is almost a sin to Kemalists. He was pretty authoritarian and some of his dissidents argue that his efforts went too far against Islam and any hints of Arab/Muslim influences in Turkey. Despite this, the good probably outweighs the bad for Turks.
MKA is arguably one of the most honored people in contemporary history. Countless statues were built in his honor and they even banned insulting him or destroying statues depicting him. I want to ask both Kemalist and non-Kemalist Turks if they think the praise is a bit excessive. No offense meant to anyone.
I don't want to step on anybody's toes here, but the amount of non-dad jokes here in this subreddit really annoys me. First of all, dad jokes CAN be NSFW, it clearly says so in the sub rules. Secondly, it doesn't automatically make it a dad joke if it's from a conversation between you and your child. Most importantly, the jokes that your CHILDREN tell YOU are not dad jokes. The point of a dad joke is that it's so cheesy only a dad who's trying to be funny would make such a joke. That's it. They are stupid plays on words, lame puns and so on. There has to be a clever pun or wordplay for it to be considered a dad joke.
Again, to all the fellow dads, I apologise if I'm sounding too harsh. But I just needed to get it off my chest.
I will pick one golden age and one dark age for simplification reasons. You can choose multiple if you wish, especially if you have a very long history (see Egypt or Iran).
Golden age: 1453 - 1590s ; Starting with the capture of İstanbul, ending with the beginning of the two costly and pointless wars (even though both of those ended in stalemate) with Austria and Iran.
Dark age: 1807 - 1919 ; Starting with the dethroning and death of Selim III (which delayed much needed and initially successful reform efforts for decades), ending with the establishment of the Turkish National Movement by Atatürk.
Kemal “Atatürk” transformed the collapsed Islamic Ottoman Empire into a modernized, Secular, & Democratic Republic: “The Republic of Turkey”. He was a hard-line reformer and westernizer.
His legacy lives on within the public and the main opposition, under principles known as “Kemalism”; (Kemalizim, The Six Arrow Principles)
Reformisim, Nationalism, Secularism, Statism, Populism & Republicanism.
He has criticized and called out religions, specifically Islam as “the religion brought on by Arabs.”- and described the holy books as “supposed books that were supposed to have descended from the skies and heavens”.
- (Sources below) -
He was a Secular Nationalist, many sources point out that he was once Muslim, then major changes occured in his beliefs.
Although the topic is still debated by some, he surely was a Secular.
Millions of Turkish people honor his legacy and stand still for one minute on 9:05 AM, November 10th- then continue their day. Some activity/events continues until late night. Many schools perform shows in honor of him that day.
—————————————— Sources and information:+ ——————————————
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk
The “holy books” speech: https://youtu.be/lZ-KajhkqMU (Translation’s in the last paragraph of this post.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atat%C3%BCrk%27s_reforms
(Below is where you can find the official record of his speech & other speeches etc) /
https://www.tbmm.gov.tr/kutuphane/meclis_acilis.html ^^^^^^ “M. Kemal Atatürk TBMM Zabıt Ceridesi, cild 20, Içtima 1, 1.11.1937, sayfa 3. Büyük Millet Meclisi Kütüphanesi”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_life_of_Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk ( The Turkish article is more detailed about this: https://tr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk%27ün_dinî_inancı )
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Arrows
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_state_funeral_of_Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_People's_Party
TRANSLATION:
“Dear MPs, it is known to the state that our main program in our state administration is the Republican People's Party program. The principles it covers are the main lines that enlighten us in administration and politics. But these principles should never be equated with the birth of books that are supposed to have descended from the sky. We have drawn our inspiration directly from life & science, not from heaven or the
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I'm surprised it hasn't decade.
For context I'm a Refuse Driver (Garbage man) & today I was on food waste. After I'd tipped I was checking the wagon for any defects when I spotted a lone pea balanced on the lifts.
I said "hey look, an escaPEA"
No one near me but it didn't half make me laugh for a good hour or so!
Edit: I can't believe how much this has blown up. Thank you everyone I've had a blast reading through the replies 😂
It really does, I swear!
They’re on standbi
Buenosdillas
Hello Everybody, my name is Bamba, and I am the overall lead for Penelope’s Web. I'm thrilled to open part one of this dev diary: “The Odyssey”, the first dev diary we've released in almost two years!
Today, we'll be following Odysseus' journey across the Mediterranean, taking us through the nations of Italy, Greece, and Turkey - Together, we'll be exploring the first year of content leading up to the events of the Malta Conference, in part 2 we will be exploring the events after Malta leading up to the Italo-Turkish War, the first major conflict of the mod.
This dev diary is a labor of love; the work of our truly wonderful Penelope’s Web team, consisting of over 50 Coders and Writers, and of course, our incredible Artist team. I would like to personally thank the leads of each nation in Penelope's Web - AtomicFalco leading France, Volkorel and Varflock leading Turkey, Citoyen Helix leading Greece and our two Writing Leads, EpochPirate and Baron Steakpuncher.
Last but certainly not least, I would like to thank the other writers of this dev diary, AnarchOfEumeswil, Pikeman, Targai, EpochPirate and Fausting.
Without further ado, let us dive into the Triumvirate, The Mediterranean,
and begin our ‘Odyssey’ in Ankara, 1962…
Welcome, once again! I'm Fausting, Writer and Designer for TNO's Turkey, and I'm incredibly happy to present to you the products of Turkey Development's labor over these past few months. We begin this journey of the Mediterranean on the warm shores of Anatolia. They retain some of their ancient coastlines and, should one squint, one would be able to make out the faint boundary between the old coastline and that left by Atlantropa. As it stands, the beaches themselves are a metaphor for a Turkish state which retains less and less of its identity as the days go by.
The Republic of Turkey
Founded in 1923, the Turkish Republic has changed very much since the days of Atatürk, but it has remained very much the same in other ways. Our story today, however, begins with marshal İsmet İnönü being sworn in as president of the republic in 1938, by then a lifelong ally of M
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Pilot on me!!
I apologize in advance for this overly long text, but I wanted to do the topic some justice.
TL:DR – The Ottomans under Kemal / the OHF should use language and the Sun Language Theory (see Wikipedia link below) as a philosophical basis for the continuation of the empire.
After playing the Ottoman Empire under Kemal several times, I was wondering how the Ottoman Empire would continue to justify its own existence to the non-Turkish peoples of the empire under the OHF. Since Islam was, for the majority of the empire’s existence, the justification for the state’s existence, this serves as a good explanation for most of the other Ottoman paths, which can keep Islam as the state religion. However, the Kemalist OHF is not such a case: It can completely scratch religion from the constitution and remove it as the state religion. Therefore, it needs another justification for its existence. At first, I thought this would simply be the royal family, but right of conquest by our ancestors” is not a good reason to stay loyal to an empire for the average citizen. Thus, I came to a different conclusion as to what would hold the empire together – language. For this purpose, the Kemalists could employ a very interesting historical footnote from our timeline: The Sun Language Theory.
Assuming that few have heard of this theory, this is a brief explanation:
- It was a bogus pseudoscientific linguistic theory that claimed all languages descended from a proto-Turkish language;
- This proto-Turkish language was supposedly created by a Central Asian people that wanted to worship the sun and thus created a set of coherent ritual spells from which modern language evolved (it is as ridiculous as it sounds but bear with me on this);
- OTL it became officially endorsed by the Turkish government in order to justify the gradual ending of replacing foreign loanwords (mostly Arabic, Persian and French) with new Turkish words, which got increasingly harder as the majority of the Turkish vocabulary was entirely Turkified;
- It was therefore more of a pragmatic tool rather than a genuine academic thing.
Here is a Wikipedia link if you want to read further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory
Now, this all sounds like your average ultranationalist fiction, something that might emerge from a nationalist group in a Balkan country, but the third point, that it became official policy, is what made it so fascinating. Mustafa Kemal’s (Atatürk’s) endorsement of the t
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Özet: Metnin ilk kısmında Atatürk'ün elindeki mutlak yetkiyle yaptığı laik devrimleri, ikinci kısmında ise demokrasi yüzünden bu laik devrimlerin nasıl terk edildiğini özetlemeye çalıştım. Bugünün sorunlarını bugün yerine dünde aramak daha doğru olur. Üzülerek söylüyorum ki Türkiye, 2. Dünya savaşı sonrası oluşan yeni dünyaya bir Kemalist-devrimci yönetim altında değil, cahil ve gerici olan halktan oy almak için her türlü tavizi vermeye açık partiler arasında girdi.
3 Mart 1924 - Hilafetin kaldırılması, medreselerin kapatılması
17 Kasım 1924 - Terakkiperver Cumhuriyet Fırkası kuruldu, ilk demokrasi denemesi, Atatürk gericilerin partiye doluştuğunu görünce daha sonra partiyi kapattırdı
25 Şubat 1925 Dinin politikaya alet edilmesi vatana ihanet sayılmaya başlandı, Hıyanet-i Vataniye Kanunu
11 Kasım 1925 - İnkılaplar başlıyor, Tekke, Zaviye ve Türbelerin kapatılması
25 Kasım 1925 - İslam dünyasından batıya yöneliş: Şapka ve kıyafet inkılabı kanununun kabulü
26 Aralık 1925 - Miladi takvimin kabulü
17 Şubat 1926 - Medenî Kanunu’nun kabulü
10 Nisan 1928 - Anayasadaki "Türkiye Cumhuriyetinin resmi dini İslam'dır" cümlesi kaldırıldı
3 Kasım 1928 Harf İnkılâbı - İslam dünyasından Batıya kayış devam ediyor.
12 Ağustos 1930 - Serbest Cumhuriyet Fırkası kuruldu. Gericiler yine bu partiye doluştu, ülke hala demokrasiye hazır değil, Parti kendisini feshetti.
26 Mart 1931- Arap ölçüleri yerine metrik sistem.
1931 - Tamamen bilimsel eğitime geçiş. Evrim teorisi müfredata ekleniyor. Lise tarih kitabından bir alıntı:
>“Filhakika insan, tabiatın mahlûkudur. Hayatın büyük kaidesi de tabiate tâbi olmaktır. Tabiatte hiç bir şey yok olamaz. Ve hiç bir şey yoktan var olamaz. Yalnız tabiati vücude getiren varlıklar, tabiatın kanunları icabı olarak şekillerini değiştirirler. Arzın ve hayatın mütalea ve tetkiklerinde bu hakikat pek açık görülür.
Fakat şunu söyliyelim ki insanların bütün bilgileri ve inanışları insanın zekası eseridir. Zeka tabiî olan dimağdan (beyinden) çıkar. Bundan tabiatı anlamakta zekanın, en büyük cevher ve müessir olduğu anlaşıldığı gibi tabiatın fevkinde (üstünde) ve haricindeki bütün mefhumların, insan dimağı için kendi tarafından uydurma şeylerden başka birşey olmıyacağı meydana çıkar.”
7 Şubat 1933 - Camide ilk türkçe ibadet.
1933 - Din dersleri müfredattan tamamen çıkarıldı.
**1939 - Atatürk öldükten sonra yukarıda alıntıda belirtilen ifadeler büyük ölçüde değiştirildi, "müslüman inancına göre" ifadesi eklenerek islam dinine
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