Hey all! Today's episode features a broad dive into the steppes of the proto-Indo-Europeans and their subsequent migrations. We start with a historiographical dive into the concept before examining the various branches that erupted from the proto-Indo-Europeans. This includes an exploration of the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, as well as a bit of focus on the Indo-Iranians and their impact on places like the Levant, India, and the Iranian plateau.
This is an episode that sets us up nicely for some pretty big developments that are happening in the Sayan-Altai region, something that we'll be covering on the next episode. In the meantime, enjoy episode 6: The Indo-European Migrations.
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-6-the-indo-european-migrations/id1593293824?i=1000547287144
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7DrVUB7F4rwawAv1ITjPcz
Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8xODQyOTg0LnJzcw/episode/QnV6enNwcm91dC05ODQ0NzE1?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwiIgvLsnKb1AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ
So apparently the Kingdom of Macedon was founded by Doric-Speaking dynasty from Argos, the Argives, which includes Phillip II and his son Alexander the Great. So that begs the question, who were the inhabitants of the region prior to the Argead migration?
- Did the migrating dynasty bring their people with them or simply ruled over the natives similar to Indo-Europeans ruling Non-Indo-Europeans like the Mittani Kingdom?
- Were these natives Indo-Europeans?
- If so, what language family did the language they speak belong to? Were they related to the Proto-Greeks migrating to the area from up north? Were they Thracians, Illyrians, Phrygians, or perhaps Paionians?
The reason I'm asking this question is because of the inconsistencies in what I've read. On the page about Ancient Macedonia in Wikipedia, the earliest event in the history of Macedonia was the founding of the Kingdom of Macedonia by Doric-Speaking Greeks from Argos, and in another page on Wikipedia it mentions that the Ancient Macedonian language was either a sister language with Greek or completely different dialect from Doric.
Did the Ancient Macedonian language exist prior to the Argead migration, or did it simply evolve out of the language the Argives spoke over the course of 500 years?
I was thinking recently about how I’ve read that the cause of the indo-European migrations may have been because of environmental changes and drought. What I thought was interesting is that, based on what I’ve read online so I may be incorrect with my facts, this seems have occurred around the same time that the Green Sahara period was ending which of course was a major environmental change. Is it thought that these two things may be connected and that the there was a single environmental change that caused both the Sahara to dry up and also caused the environment of the Ukraine region to change which then resulted in the Indo-Europeans migrating?
This is probably minor and is about a conversation I saw where someone quoted this part of David Reich's book.
>“We found that the degree of differentiation was at least three times greater than that among European groups separated by similar geographic distances,” writes Reich.
Another user responded.
>This is not because they didn't practice endogamy but because Indo-Europeans didn't bring much females with them and some researchers say that they migrated to Europe for females to begin with. The Europeans they encountered were already suffering massive decline in population so they weren't able to sustain of Serf class and eventually they started to become homogenous. The Euro farmers were also genetically close to IE unlike IVC,Indian tribals and Aryans. There is some evidence of early farmers having a caste system similar to India with European Hunter Gatherer ancestry ranking lower. We just kept the Bronze caste system going for longer than them.
Does the above quote make sense or is based on actual research?
1- Why those PIE people decided to migrate away from wherever they were living?
2- Why they were so successful in conquering the native people of Iranian plateau, India or Europe? Why the native population assimilated to the conquering tribe linguistically?
3- Why specifically PIEs? Why Semetics or sub-saharan Africans or Chinese didn't do this? What kind of edge did PIE have? Like no other ancient people could figure out how to build chariots or ride horses?
I understand that they migrated around but I have a lot of difficulty picturing in my head the actual way in which they migrated. Did they move in covered wagons like migrants on the Oregon Trail? Were they physically carrying supplies while walking across Eurasia? What did it actually look like when they were moving? What were they looking for as they moved around? Empty pasture land? I'm interested in the IE migrations because they seem super important for all kinds of reasons but it is difficult for me to picture in my head the actual way in which the migrations happened?
Indo-European migrations were probably one of the most significant set of events in human history. Yet we have discovered them only relatively recently. And Indo-Europeans have preserved much of their religion and folklore (the three spinsters of fate, the hero and the serpent, and more). And of course, they/we still preserve the language.
But have any of them preserved any clues as to their (at the very least) cultural origin in a faraway land?
We today believe that some people, notably Basques, maintained stronger "connection" to the pre-Indoeuropean population, aka they have a more genetic connection to what is believed to be "Old Europeans". I also heard some stories about the population of Western Balkan (allegedly genetic studies showed specific haplogroup for this area). My question is do we know of any other major genetic anomaly in some areas that can be connected to a strong "connection" to the pre-Indoeuropean population? Do we know, or have at least some good guesses, what happened to the pre-Indoeuropean population in Europe after the arrival of Indo-Europeans?
I believe the Vedas and the Avestan religion are actually tales of these migrations ? Is that the case? I’ve also heard that they are stories about how the different indo European or aryan tribes fought each other in Central Asia and then they went their own ways. One west to Iran and the other south east to India. Has archaeology given us any insight on these migrations ?
Also how do the Mitanni play into this timeline. They were indo Europeans that made it all the way to Syria.
Initially it was thought that the Aryans had brought in the horse, chariot, iron, and most importantly, the Vedic religion and Sanskrit into India. I had also thought that about the time of the Indo Aryan migration into India (around 1800-1600 BCE), the Indus valley civilisation had been abandoned and the people had moved South and/or East.
But recent findings in sanauli show that the chariot was there in India around (2000-1800BCE), which is before the Aryan migration. The chariots are suspected to have been horse drawn, and also, apparently the burials in this site bear resemblance to Vedic rituals. This means that either the Aryans had fully established themselves in (Northern) India around 1800 BCE (as these burials are found near Delhi, and not near the NW border of India), or that the Vedic religion is not entirely Aryan.
Also, new findings seem to show that iron working developed independently in India.
So Aryans didn't bring superior technology like the chariot, iron or horse into india.
Also, I recall that a recent study showed that modern South Asians have less than 30% steppe ancestry. So the Indo Aryans did not even overwhelmingly alter the demographics of India.
This being the case the only new things the Indo Aryans brought in were the Vedic religion and Sanskrit (atleast to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong). How were they able to establish them in India, that too to such an extent that no trace remains of the original language and culture of the Indus people?
Hello fellow cattle raiders, this post will be dedicated to the Indo-European coming-of-age ritual, dubbed "Männerbund"(German for man-bond) by the Swedish professor Stig Wikander. The reconstructed term for this warband is *Koryos, which cognates with the proto-Germanic *Harjaz (army or army leader), Old Irish Cuire (troop, company), Lithuanian kãras (war), and Old Persian kara (people of war).
I will write a post detailing this ritual and how in my eyes it related to the Indo-European migrations, so first half is factual, second part is just my theorizing. If you are on this subreddit you probably have already read or watched (my lazy ass only posts youtube links after all) plenty of stuff related to the Indo-European cultures, so you might already be familiar with this concept. The idea of young men, forming war bands and going out to raid. Feel free to add stuff in the comments, critique my findings and such. Hope you enjoy!
The wolf rites
As I mentioned earlier, young men, warbands and raids. I forgot to mention wolves. In many Indo-European myths and cultural practices there are hints of an older ritual, a ritual which for some reason links young men and wolves. In this ritual, these young men would don wolf skins and group up in small packs, essentially "becoming" wolves. They would then go out and harass unlucky people and try to take their stuff.
>In Germanic traditions, these bands of young warriors thought of themselves as wolf packs. A famous myth about the hero Siegfried has him donning a dog skin to go raiding with his nephew, whom he is training to become a warrior. In the Rigveda, an ancient Sanskrit text composed sometime before 1000 B.C., young men can only become warriors after sacrificing a dog at a winter ceremony and wearing its skin for four years, which they burn upon their return to society.
There are other examples of this phenomenom, the story of Romulus and Reme has some similarities to this ritual. The Spartans sometimes did not feed the boys in the Agoge to encourage them to survive through stealing. In Celtic and Germanic societies young men would often venture into the world by way of their raiding parties. The Viking age is probably the most prominent example.
Anyways, this was essentially the ritual which turned boys (presumably of the warrior class) into men. The idea is that these boys would be cast out from their society and when they returned they would be men. This would also increase their
... keep reading on reddit ➡#Indo-European Migration
The Indo-European Migrations will take place over the next many centuries to come. They will spread fast and all around where they have historically gone, unless you somehow manage to avoid it. Being pinged and called to respond to this post or a follow-up post means the migrations have reached your claim's lands, and you will have to decide the future of your claim.
Your options are as follows:
###Option 1: Integration
In this scenario, your people and the PIE avoid conflict. Peaceful integration of one or the other is the outcome, similarly to how this likely happened to many "Old Europe" cultures.
You can either choose to have outcome 1, or it will be randomly determined.
- Outcome 1 (90% base chance, you can choose to have this outcome): The PIE tribes move into the lands of your people. Their people outnumber your people, but there is enough land for everyone. Over time, your people interact with and adapt to the languages and the customs of the newcomers. Your claim's culture and language becomes one of the branches of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. You receive "domestic horse" as a technology.
- Outcome 2 (10% base chance, you can increase this chance up to 25% through suitable role-play): The PIE tribes move into the lands of your people. They outnumber you, but there is enough land for everyone. Over time, they somehow begin to adopt to your languages and traditions. Your claim's culture and language is mostly unchanged. You receive "domestic horse" as a technology.
###Option 2: Conflict
In this scenario, your people and the PIE cannot coexist. There may not be enough land or food, or you simply cannot get accept sharing your land for other reasons. A long series of conflict decides the fate of your people.
- Outcome 1 (95% base chance, you can choose to have this outcome): The PIE tribes destroy your people. Your people are killed, chased away, enslaved or subjugated to the invading cultures. Your claim becomes part of one of the branches of Proto-Indo-European. You receive "domestic horse" as a technology.
- Outcome 2 (5% base chance, you can increase this chance up to 15% through suitable role-play and 65% through other conditions. The highest possible chance caps at 70%): Your people fend off the PIE. In their myths, your people gain a fierce reputation and migration to your land decreases over time. Your claim's culture and language is largely unchanged. You receive a free military technology for which you have t
I may not have gotten that right, but how do we know that sort of thing? Is it the haplogroups?
The Aryan Migration Theory is as contentious as it is important in India. While some believe that Indo-Europeans migrated from the Steppes around 2000 B.C. and mixed with the native population, others claim that civilisation on the Indian subcontinent is actually much older and purer.
While a lot of research as been done, the picture is not clear. [This article] (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/how-genetics-is-settling-the-aryan-migration-debate/article19090301.ece) in a respected Indian newspaper discusses how the science shows that the theory is most probably true, while [this one] (https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/genetics-might-be-settling-the-aryan-migration-debate-but-not-how-left-liberals-believe) refutes it, citing a bunch of studies too. Neither side is disinterested. Both articles get a bit technical, so I can't resolve them on my own.
Could someone please simplify the technical details and address my question? Thanks :)
Linguistics believe the Indo-European languages originated from the Kurgan culture in the Pontic Steppe. It was spread by nomadic migration into Europe and south-central Asia
Do you believe that the aryan languages have zero connection to the European and Iranian languages? Or that you believe the proto-Indo European linguistic homeland was in India?
Hey all! Today's episode features a broad dive into the steppes of the proto-Indo-Europeans and their subsequent migrations. We start with a historiographical dive into the concept before examining the various branches that erupted from the proto-Indo-Europeans. This includes an exploration of the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, as well as a bit of focus on the Indo-Iranians and their impact on places like the Levant, India, and the Iranian plateau.
This is an episode that sets us up nicely for some pretty big developments that are happening in the Sayan-Altai region, something that we'll be covering on the next episode. In the meantime, enjoy episode 6: The Indo-European Migrations.
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-6-the-indo-european-migrations/id1593293824?i=1000547287144
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7DrVUB7F4rwawAv1ITjPcz
Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8xODQyOTg0LnJzcw/episode/QnV6enNwcm91dC05ODQ0NzE1?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwiIgvLsnKb1AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ
